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Thread: A puzzle in Aureum Seculum Seculum Redivivum (Madathanus)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Hahaha.. I know; but I like coincidences.
    I tend to let myself be guided by them.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    "Ab uno omnia et ad unum omnia" From one, everything and to one, everything" (not sure if my translation to English makes sense, but a less literal translation is "Everything comes from one and to one everything returns")

    What you have on the right is "Quod est superius est sicut Inferius"... which is a literal quote of a line of the Emerald Tablet, though a "quod" is missing and the grammar gets a bit wrong ("hat which is above is like that which is below" would be the translation)... even if the correct way of writing it should be: "quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius"

    We obviously have nothing in common!
    Do you like Giordano Bruno too? I'm been collecting whatever images of his I can find for while now. It's really hard to find good versions of his original printed works. I'd like to say these are from 'Explicatio triginta sigillorum ad omnium', but I'd never found it. All I found is "Illustrations de Explicatio triginta sigillorum ad omnium", probably digitized from microform, and from an already inferior copy.

    These are probably inspired by the Sefer Yetzirah. Bruno (like me) couldn't read hebrew, but he had an assistant that translated pages for him.



    This one uses the latin alphabet, but they are laid out like the typical interpretation of the rotating wheel, with the 22 letters connected to each other for the gates. the bottom part looks like they are all connect back to the "one"


  2. #12
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    You two might be interested in "The Bible Wheel".

    https://www.biblewheel.com/Book/BibleWheel_Book_web.pdf

    While what you are talking about is more advanced, this PDF (especially the first third) is interesting. Awesome discussion! Greg, you have an amazing collection of Hermetic images.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    You two might be interested in "The Bible Wheel".

    https://www.biblewheel.com/Book/BibleWheel_Book_web.pdf

    While what you are talking about is more advanced, this PDF (especially the first third) is interesting.
    I gave it a quick browse for now.. I didn't catch the part you said at the first third at first, and I agree with you on that. Quite a bit of the beginning part seems to be partially inspired by the Yetsirah. I browsed a later chapter about "wheels" in general, igul/gilgul and all that good stuff. Regardless of the validity of any of his theories, there's definitely good bits all over the place. Where he goes with it, I dunno. As far as preliminary criticisms, I really don't know why he's trying to group books of the bible onto a wheel and why it would matter. Also, he seems to be applying his same hebrew analysis to the New Testament, which was never written in Hebrew. He doesn't seem to get into the Greek very much..only when it supports what he is saying. Also, I've noticed some parts he's throwing in everything and the kitchen sink.. He brings up some random preacher and a hymn he wrote... It's also self-published with no editor or "peer review" of any kind. I think he starts off well but falls into confirmation bias and maybe doesn't exercise as much discernment later on.

    I'm reminded of a quote I've posted before:

    “A lunatic is easily recognized. He is a moron who doesn’t know the ropes. The moron proves his thesis; he has a logic, however twisted it may be. The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn’t concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars.”
    He's no dummy, but intelligent lunatics are the hardest to identify, and often at the cost of much time spent before the realization occurs that you've been led down his particular rabbit hole. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here, but it's something I try to remain cognizant of.

    That being said, I'll always scan works like this in case it mentions sources I don't know about. And just because I don't agree with the over all thesis, there could still be plenty of good ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmuldvich View Post
    Awesome discussion! Greg, you have an amazing collection of Hermetic images.
    My best repository of my collection was on Google+. I had a bunch of albums uploaded to Google Photos where they are kept in high-res and zoomable.. And they were organized in nice Collections. But that's all gone now. There's no way to link to all public albums, for instance. I have to "create" public links for each of them. I suppose that will be my next blog post.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I tend to let myself be guided by them.
    I do the same, even if sometimes it takes me some 20 years to realize that there is a coincidence!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Do you like Giordano Bruno too? I'm been collecting whatever images of his I can find for while now. It's really hard to find good versions of his original printed works. I'd like to say these are from 'Explicatio triginta sigillorum ad omnium', but I'd never found it. All I found is "Illustrations de Explicatio triginta sigillorum ad omnium", probably digitized from microform, and from an already inferior copy.

    These are probably inspired by the Sefer Yetzirah. Bruno (like me) couldn't read hebrew, but he had an assistant that translated pages for him.


    This one uses the latin alphabet, but they are laid out like the typical interpretation of the rotating wheel, with the 22 letters connected to each other for the gates. the bottom part looks like they are all connect back to the "one"
    Yes, I like Bruno! (actually, we have at home a nice blue fish called "Bruno" because he is a trouble maker).
    Having said such thing, I was not familiar with that specific work until you mentioned it (which is weird, because it seems to have been quoted extensively by Yates in the "Art of Memory", which I also like a lot).

    I have used google and there are a few online versions, none of them has an amazing quality, but thankfully the graphics are very geometrical and simple, thus probably it would be easier to make them again with a simple software than spending years trying to find a perfect version (if they were complex engravings with artistic designs, then I would not be saying such thing... but they are really lines, circles and squares).

    I didn't have the time to read the book, so I'd rather not speculate about the meaning of the 22 letters which are linked to a circle that is linked to the 22 letters again, because Bruno is obviously explaining the meaning of his design somewhere in his book... So you seem to be right, but it would be better to read what Bruno has to say about his own design.
    Last edited by zoas23; 05-12-2019 at 06:43 PM. Reason: I am making a mess with the quotes....

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I do the same, even if sometimes it takes me some 20 years to realize that there is a coincidence!
    But that's the best!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, I like Bruno! (actually, we have at home a nice blue fish called "Bruno" because he is a trouble maker).
    Having said such thing, I was not familiar with that specific work until you mentioned it (which is weird, because it seems to have been quoted extensively by Yates in the "Art of Memory", which I also like a lot).
    Do you not have \Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition' by Yates as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I have used google and there are a few online versions, none of them has an amazing quality,
    Here are a couple of decent albums:

    Giordano Bruno - De Monade Numero et Figura
    De triplici minimo et mensura ad trium speculatiuarum scientiarum

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    but thankfully the graphics are very geometrical and simple, thus probably it would be easier to make them again with
    are you kidding me.. (didn't bother finishing the second one for now):








    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    a simple software than spending years trying to find a perfect version (if they were complex engravings with artistic designs, then I would not be saying such thing... but they are really lines, circles and squares).
    Yeah the artistic flourishes where the hardest for me to reproduce, the technical stuff is easy. The geometry is really my thing. Here's my simple software.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    But that's the best!
    I am forced to agree... which brings a recurrent subject in many alchemical texts: the idea that the solution is in front of our eyes but we do not see it (until we eventually see it... or not).

    "There is a building, a great building lacking windows and doors, a princely, aye imperial palace, everywhere visible, but hidden from the eyes of men, (...) Oh how many men go unknowing and without understanding through all the rooms, all the secret hidden places of this palace, unseeing, uncomprehending, worse than a blind man, or as the saying goes, as a donkey on a bagpipe, because they have not been sufficiently prepared and made worthy."

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Do you not have \Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition' by Yates as well?
    Yes, I think I have all the books by Yates. For some reason they were extremely popular in Spanish when I was a teen, so most bookstores had all of them (same thing goes for Fucanelli). So, if I am not wrong, the books by Yates are probably the first ones I've read about Hermeticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    are you kidding me.. (didn't bother finishing the second one for now):





    Yeah the artistic flourishes where the hardest for me to reproduce, the technical stuff is easy. The geometry is really my thing. Here's my simple software.
    They are possible to reproduce, even if it takes some effort... I meant that with a proper software they can be made again and there isn't any loss... Whilst re-creating, say, the engravings of Atalanta Fugiens... Such thing would REALLY be a nightmare.

    Oh, you remind me a lot of a good friend who was not happy with the existing astro softwares due to small inaccuracies so he created his own version and not even the most expensive softwares can be a rival to the one he created (which is not commercially available because it is stored in his computer that acts like a server and it can only be accessed with a password that he gives to a few friends).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I am forced to agree... which brings a recurrent subject in many alchemical texts: the idea that the solution is in front of our eyes but we do not see it (until we eventually see it... or not).

    "There is a building, a great building lacking windows and doors, a princely, aye imperial palace, everywhere visible, but hidden from the eyes of men, (...) Oh how many men go unknowing and without understanding through all the rooms, all the secret hidden places of this palace, unseeing, uncomprehending, worse than a blind man, or as the saying goes, as a donkey on a bagpipe, because they have not been sufficiently prepared and made worthy."
    ..and it doesn't just apply to alchemy. Generally speaking there are many times when the information i was looking for had already been in my hands, I just was looking at it from the wrong angle.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Yes, I think I have all the books by Yates. For some reason they were extremely popular in Spanish when I was a teen, so most bookstores had all of them (same thing goes for Fucanelli). So, if I am not wrong, the books by Yates are probably the first ones I've read about Hermeticism.
    Her works were probably the first (and for a long time the only) indepth analysis of the art of memory genre. there are other books nowadays.. but they probably aren't as good. There are aspects she doesn't understand, however.

    The "classical" (Greek) art of memory is well understood, in the sense of the spatial arrangemnet of "loci" and all that jazz, it was studied as a part of "Rhetorica" in terms of memorizing the points an orator wanted to make, etc. I think less understood is the combining of ideas to come up with new ideas..

    'This art does not simply confer an art of memory, but also opens many faculties of invention. For this reason, remember to preserve this inwardly [take it to Heart], for the royal does not depend on the choice of the common: every one of those things can be explained in its canons, provided according to capacities and faculties of the listener, as long as an intense and elegant explanation isn't missing.'
    ..and where all Bruno's geometry fits into it. It's really a combination of left brain and right brain thinking. The geometry of straight edge and compass is often referred to as "Art" or "Craft". It (combined with the right contemplation and right intent) can really get things warmed up and vibrating. While always referred to as "Art of Memory", I think of it as more the "Art of the Mind".


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    They are possible to reproduce, even if it takes some effort... I meant that with a proper software they can be made again and there isn't any loss... Whilst re-creating, say, the engravings of Atalanta Fugiens... Such thing would REALLY be a nightmare.
    Oops.. the "are you kidding me" was regarding the coincidence again. What you said was exactly how/why I ended up taking the time to recreate a few of them. I have plans to go further.. But as usual, I did enough to "prove the concept" to myself, and then left it to move on to something else. I will say this, their "effect" is much pronounced when they are reproduced compared to the faded grainy versions.

    There is also much to be learned by going through the motions in reproducing them.. understanding how they are constructed.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Oh, you remind me a lot of a good friend who was not happy with the existing astro softwares due to small inaccuracies so he created his own version and not even the most expensive softwares can be a rival to the one he created (which is not commercially available because it is stored in his computer that acts like a server and it can only be accessed with a password that he gives to a few friends).
    If there would have been something out there to easily allow me to do what I wanted, I would have just used it. There were measurements of angles and lengths of lines I wanted to be able to calculate exactly as some of the constructions progress, and that's pretty much impossible in a drawing program. (looking for things like the golden ratio)

    Right now I usually use a combination of my program.. the images I export for it often end up as layers in Photoshop. There are better ways of doing animations, but there's a learning curve. Where as with my program, when I have an idea I can immediately sit down and hash it out.
    Last edited by Greg Marcus; 05-14-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    ..and it doesn't just apply to alchemy. Generally speaking there are many times when the information i was looking for had already been in my hands, I just was looking at it from the wrong angle.
    Oh, yes, just like Poe's Purloined Letter... the police tries to find the letter in the most bizarre places of the house of the thief. Then the detective considers that they are not finding it because it's simply mixed with the other letters that the thief has and it's not even hidden. We are strange creatures indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Her works were probably the first (and for a long time the only) indepth analysis of the art of memory genre. there are other books nowadays.. but they probably aren't as good. There are aspects she doesn't understand, however. The "classical" (Greek) art of memory is well understood, in the sense of the spatial arrangemnet of "loci" and all that jazz, it was studied as a part of "Rhetorica" in terms of memorizing the points an orator wanted to make, etc. I think less understood is the combining of ideas to come up with new ideas..
    ..and where all Bruno's geometry fits into it. It's really a combination of left brain and right brain thinking. The geometry of straight edge and compass is often referred to as "Art" or "Craft". It (combined with the right contemplation and right intent) can really get things warmed up and vibrating. While always referred to as "Art of Memory", I think of it as more the "Art of the Mind".
    Of course, probably it is an "art of memory" because the memory meant something different... i.e, like Plato's anamnesis.
    Or, we were talking about a Puzzle in Madathanus and it gets obvious that we won't find the answer... But his book contains something interesting about the Memory: Solomon explains (using some parables) what Madathanus should expect if he manages to finish his "Stone"... and the effect he mentions a lot is that his Memory will be restored and then he says that his Memory will be like gold. It is quite obvious that he means an experience of "enlightenment"... but the literal phrase is restoring the memory and making it like gold.

    I've read the books by Yates a LONG time ago, but I liked them a lot. I liked her academic style (as opposed to the style of Mircea Eliade, who often wrote a lot about things which only existed in his imagination and would be impossible to verify -though I can give him the credit of having encouraged Ioan Culianu to write).

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Oops.. the "are you kidding me" was regarding the coincidence again. What you said was exactly how/why I ended up taking the time to recreate a few of them. I have plans to go further.. But as usual, I did enough to "prove the concept" to myself, and then left it to move on to something else. I will say this, their "effect" is much pronounced when they are reproduced compared to the faded grainy versions.

    There is also much to be learned by going through the motions in reproducing them.. understanding how they are constructed.
    I am sure that there's a lot to learn. I absolutely get it because it must be similar to translating... when you translate a book, you end up getting a lot of things that you probably miss if you simply read the book, but it's because you have to pay attention to each word and think a lot about them.
    A friend is a calligrapher and some years ago he was giving a conference about calligraphy and the "sacred alphabets", so he was asked what is sacred about calligraphy. He simply said that there is something that happens simply because it takes a lot of time, that the huge difference is the time that it is devoted to writing something... which made sense to me.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Oh, yes, just like Poe's Purloined Letter... the police tries to find the letter in the most bizarre places of the house of the thief. Then the detective considers that they are not finding it because it's simply mixed with the other letters that the thief has and it's not even hidden. We are strange creatures indeed.
    Yeah I had to look this up the first time you mentioned it. I get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    Of course, probably it is an "art of memory" because the memory meant something different... i.e, like Plato's anamnesis.
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I am sure that there's a lot to learn. I absolutely get it because it must be similar to translating... when you translate a book, you end up getting a lot of things that you probably miss if you simply read the book, but it's because you have to pay attention to each word and think a lot about them.
    Absolutely. And the multiple meanings of words/terms, not just the common modern ones.

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