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Thread: Internal/External Alchemy - As Above, So Below

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    Internal/External Alchemy - As Above, So Below

    As above; so below. As within; so without. As with the universe; so with the soul.” - Hermes

    I've been doing some deep thinking lately. Given the quote above, I'm wondering if Internal alchemy can bestow one the same benefits that physical alchemy can. Food for thought for right now.

    ''Neidan, or internal alchemy (simplified Chinese: 內丹术; traditional Chinese: 內丹術; pinyin: nčidān shů), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death (Skar and Pregadio 2000, 464).'' - Wiki

    ''Historically the first detailed description of the lower Dantian is in the Laozi zhongjing 老子中經 from the 3rd century CE, it refers to the elixir-of-life field where "essence" and "spirit" are stored, it is related to regeneration and sexual energy, menstruation and semen.[3] Traditionally, a dantian is considered to be a center of qi or life force energy'' - Wiki

    There are, according to the books, three dantiens which they call ''The Three Treasures''.

    Three treasures, three dantiens, sound very similar to the three ingredients/aspects used/needed for practical external alchemy which are; salt, sulphur and mercury.

    The idea is supposedly that the three dantiens work to convert one grosser energy, into a more refiner energy, and each time an energy is being refined it works its way into being absorbed by the next dantien above it, and when it finally makes it to the third dantien and is converted into its most refined form, it supposedly cycles its way back down to the first dantien, and is used by the body.

    To me, this mirrors what I've learned when it comes to practical lab alchemy. If I were to take the As Above, So Below philosophy that I would apply to my practical lab work, and apply it to internal alchemy, then my own senses tell me that the work is the same, and so are the effects that the Philosophers' Stone would have to the consumer, as Neidan/Internal Alchemy would to the meditator/practitioner.

    To add onto this, the Taoists/Daoist believe in two essential forces in their internal work, which they believe mirrors The Great Tao. They call these two forces Xing and Ming.

    Could these two forces be one and the same as... the Yin & Yang?

    Let me know your thoughts. Could one achieve immortality through Neidan? Could one prolong life and restore themselves to their youth? Could one transmute gold with the use of Neidan?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    As above; so below. As within; so without. As with the universe; so with the soul.” - Hermes

    I've been doing some deep thinking lately. Given the quote above, I'm wondering if Internal alchemy can bestow one the same benefits that physical alchemy can. Food for thought for right now.


    ''Historically the first detailed description of the lower Dantian is in the Laozi zhongjing 老子中經 from the 3rd century CE, it refers to the elixir-of-life field where "essence" and "spirit" are stored, it is related to regeneration and sexual energy, menstruation and semen.[3] Traditionally, a dantian is considered to be a center of qi or life force energy'' - Wiki


    Three treasures, three dantiens, sound very similar to the three ingredients/aspects used/needed for practical external alchemy which are; salt, sulphur and mercury.

    The idea is supposedly that the three dantiens work to convert one grosser energy, into a more refiner energy, and each time an energy is being refined it works its way into being absorbed by the next dantien above it, and when it finally makes it to the third dantien and is converted into its most refined form, it supposedly cycles its way back down to the first dantien, and is used by the body.

    To me, this mirrors what I've learned when it comes to practical lab alchemy. If I were to take the As Above, So Below philosophy that I would apply to my practical lab work, and apply it to internal alchemy, then my own senses tell me that the work is the same, and so are the effects that the Philosophers' Stone would have to the consumer, as Neidan/Internal Alchemy would to the meditator/practitioner.

    To add onto this, the Taoists/Daoist believe in two essential forces in their internal work, which they believe mirrors The Great Tao. They call these two forces Xing and Ming.

    Could these two forces be one and the same as... the Yin & Yang?

    Let me know your thoughts. Could one achieve immortality through Neidan? Could one prolong life and restore themselves to their youth? Could one transmute gold with the use of Neidan?

    You have a few things mixed up here I would like to clear up for you.

    First the Three Treasures are Jing Shen and Qi. These are complex notions that need to include concepts of Chinese philosophy to understand. When speaking of Jing, it can be divided into several categories, sometimes more but mostly just mainly the two categories of pre-natal and post-natal.

    Jing: refined, perfected, extract, spirit, demon, sperm, seed, neurotransmitters, DNA, egg.


    Prenatal Jing is passed on to you by your parents and their parents, throughout the pedigree and ancestry.

    The Chinese believe that through the taking of herbs and the practice of Qi-Gong as well as meditation, you can protect, restore, and build up the Jing, which is lost through lifes hardships.

    Jing also is a great barometer in determining your life span and the vitality you will have during this life span. Basically the life and health of your ancestors and more importantly your parents is a great indicator.

    Jing is housed in the kidneys.

    Qi, we won't go too deep here. Let's just call it the energy that can potentially build if you practice Qi Gong. Qi is in the blood and is created by Jing your essence. Chinese say "Jing Generates Qi". Qi transforms through the alchemy of the body various elements of nature like food and air you breath into the energy you need to be alive.

    Shen is the energy given off by your spirit and is often correlated with the heart and thus ones emotional and spiritual storehouse. The Chinese have one word for heart and mind (Xin) heart/mind. So the mind and the spirit (getting your life in order) must be calmed and in balance before Shen (spiritual energy) can be transformed.

    Here is a quote from one of my teachers

    “If we want to conserve or restore lost principal energy, sexual energy provides the means to create that extra power if we conserve, recycle, and transform it back into principal energy.

    “We then will have more energy available to transform into Chi, which in turn becomes transformed into another type of energy called ‘Shen.’ The word ‘Shen’ means spiritual energy.” – Mantak Chia,



    Because these "Three Treasures" have physical locations not actually organs even though we say the lower dan tien is in the stomach, the middle the heart, and the upper the head, these are energy palaces or reservoir. And they are also called cauldrons. When all three are in balance you have created what we call "The Triple Burner" a system of meridians in the upper chest and heart where abundant qi will flow.

    I could share the exercise we use to do all this if your interested. It is easy to practice I mean super easy and profound with tangible results, the ability for your body to fight disease and create an internal medicinal compound an "elixir" is unparalleled and no other system of medicine compares to the natural responses of the human endocrine and immune system. Qi gong is a tool to tap into these autonomic response systems that are pre programmed into everyone's DNA or pre natal Qi.

    The fact that medicine comes from nature, and that Chinese alchemists believed that nature or more precisely the entire universe was in fact replicated inside the human body caused the sages to code the Qi-Gong literature with references to Nature, Rivers, Mtn. Springs, Animals, Stars etc. Because this is literally where the elements are derived from and thus the energy batteries inside the dan tiens can also be filled with this Nature energy to boost or speed up the natural process inside the body.

    The Nei Dan and Wei Dan practitioner believes that he is directly interfering with the speed in which Nature and his body interact through Alchemical trans formative practices. Our teachers say that we are creating pressure and just like the coal in the earth with great time and pressure a diamond can be formed. This diamond is the body and many practices if not all of them are aimed at creating this subtle diamond body that is immortal.

    A child, born in the cauldron of the lower dan tien, a red cinnibar child of immortality. Through the microcosmic orbit the first generation of a seed the size of a "grain" is created it takes roughly 30 days, it grows every generation of 30 days, it takes 90 days for the "grain" to be formed and planted in the fertile soil that has been created through this 90 day period. The more you orbit the energy the bigger the elixir pill becomes.

    I always try to tell people when they come to my class that Qi-Gong is a guarantee but it takes 90 days of practice. The generation of that first seed is life changing, it changed my life in profound ways and shaped my family and future.

    Secondly read this article for more on Xing and Ming.

    http://www.scholarsage.com/xing-and-ming/

    Through another complex series of practices that involve physical exertion a relationship is formed between the Ming men or the Gate of Life and Destinyand the soles of the feet or the "Bubbling Spring". In Traditional Chinese theory there is a point in the middle of the lumbar region of back that is believed to be the centre of ‘Vitality’ and where the original life essence of the individual is based, this point is called the ‘Ming Men’.



    This causes Layers of release liken to extreme cases of Massage or relaxation therapy, where you can regress into early life memories and experience lots of emotion energy pent up from physical discomfort or disharmony.

    What is immortality? Is it the creation of a spirit body that ensures some "after death" existence? Or is it the experience of something "outside" the mind and or body that confirms the existence of something "outside" and thus indestructible unlike the frail human body?

    The Taoist often refer to the unpracticed, uninitiated, uneducated man as a leaden brick.

    Through the practice of Qi-Gong -(internal and external Alchemy) this lead body could potentially turned to gold.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    You have a few things mixed up here I would like to clear up for you.

    First the Three Treasures are Jing Shen and Qi. These are complex notions that need to include concepts of Chinese philosophy to understand. When speaking of Jing, it can be divided into several categories, sometimes more but mostly just mainly the two categories of pre-natal and post-natal.

    Jing: refined, perfected, extract, spirit, demon, sperm, seed, neurotransmitters, DNA, egg.


    Prenatal Jing is passed on to you by your parents and their parents, throughout the pedigree and ancestry.

    The Chinese believe that through the taking of herbs and the practice of Qi-Gong as well as meditation, you can protect, restore, and build up the Jing, which is lost through lifes hardships.

    Jing also is a great barometer in determining your life span and the vitality you will have during this life span. Basically the life and health of your ancestors and more importantly your parents is a great indicator.

    Jing is housed in the kidneys.

    Qi, we won't go too deep here. Let's just call it the energy that can potentially build if you practice Qi Gong. Qi is in the blood and is created by Jing your essence. Chinese say "Jing Generates Qi". Qi transforms through the alchemy of the body various elements of nature like food and air you breath into the energy you need to be alive.

    Shen is the energy given off by your spirit and is often correlated with the heart and thus ones emotional and spiritual storehouse. The Chinese have one word for heart and mind (Xin) heart/mind. So the mind and the spirit (getting your life in order) must be calmed and in balance before Shen (spiritual energy) can be transformed.

    Here is a quote from one of my teachers

    “If we want to conserve or restore lost principal energy, sexual energy provides the means to create that extra power if we conserve, recycle, and transform it back into principal energy.

    “We then will have more energy available to transform into Chi, which in turn becomes transformed into another type of energy called ‘Shen.’ The word ‘Shen’ means spiritual energy.” – Mantak Chia,



    Because these "Three Treasures" have physical locations not actually organs even though we say the lower dan tien is in the stomach, the middle the heart, and the upper the head, these are energy palaces or reservoir. And they are also called cauldrons. When all three are in balance you have created what we call "The Triple Burner" a system of meridians in the upper chest and heart where abundant qi will flow.

    I could share the exercise we use to do all this if your interested. It is easy to practice I mean super easy and profound with tangible results, the ability for your body to fight disease and create an internal medicinal compound an "elixir" is unparalleled and no other system of medicine compares to the natural responses of the human endocrine and immune system. Qi gong is a tool to tap into these autonomic response systems that are pre programmed into everyone's DNA or pre natal Qi.

    The fact that medicine comes from nature, and that Chinese alchemists believed that nature or more precisely the entire universe was in fact replicated inside the human body caused the sages to code the Qi-Gong literature with references to Nature, Rivers, Mtn. Springs, Animals, Stars etc. Because this is literally where the elements are derived from and thus the energy batteries inside the dan tiens can also be filled with this Nature energy to boost or speed up the natural process inside the body.

    The Nei Dan and Wei Dan practitioner believes that he is directly interfering with the speed in which Nature and his body interact through Alchemical trans formative practices. Our teachers say that we are creating pressure and just like the coal in the earth with great time and pressure a diamond can be formed. This diamond is the body and many practices if not all of them are aimed at creating this subtle diamond body that is immortal.

    A child, born in the cauldron of the lower dan tien, a red cinnibar child of immortality. Through the microcosmic orbit the first generation of a seed the size of a "grain" is created it takes roughly 30 days, it grows every generation of 30 days, it takes 90 days for the "grain" to be formed and planted in the fertile soil that has been created through this 90 day period. The more you orbit the energy the bigger the elixir pill becomes.

    I always try to tell people when they come to my class that Qi-Gong is a guarantee but it takes 90 days of practice. The generation of that first seed is life changing, it changed my life in profound ways and shaped my family and future.

    Secondly read this article for more on Xing and Ming.

    http://www.scholarsage.com/xing-and-ming/

    Through another complex series of practices that involve physical exertion a relationship is formed between the Ming men or the Gate of Life and Destinyand the soles of the feet or the "Bubbling Spring". In Traditional Chinese theory there is a point in the middle of the lumbar region of back that is believed to be the centre of ‘Vitality’ and where the original life essence of the individual is based, this point is called the ‘Ming Men’.



    This causes Layers of release liken to extreme cases of Massage or relaxation therapy, where you can regress into early life memories and experience lots of emotion energy pent up from physical discomfort or disharmony.

    What is immortality? Is it the creation of a spirit body that ensures some "after death" existence? Or is it the experience of something "outside" the mind and or body that confirms the existence of something "outside" and thus indestructible unlike the frail human body?

    The Taoist often refer to the unpracticed, uninitiated, uneducated man as a leaden brick.

    Through the practice of Qi-Gong -(internal and external Alchemy) this lead body could potentially turned to gold.
    Thanks for clearing some things up, and going in depth. I'd be more than happy to hear about your dantien practice is done.

    You mentioned microcosmic orbit. I understand the word 'microcosm-ic' is there. In your views, is the microcosmic orbit present and used in dantien work?
    This would make me think that it's essential in Inner Alchemy work, if the microcosmic orbit is one that parallels the external world. As Above, So Below

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    Through the practice of Qi-Gong -(internal and external Alchemy) this lead body could potentially turned to gold.
    Here is something I found when looking up Shaolin Monks and their diet, from pangeabuilders.com;

    ''Here is how Sifu Wang Kiew Kit of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute responds to this question:

    “It is a common misconception among many people that eating meat is necessary for providing the energy needed in vigorous kungfu. In fact the reverse is more probably true. Traditional Shaolin monks were strict vegetarians, and there was no doubt that they were tremendously powerful. Why? Where did they get their tremendous energy? About 80% was from heaven chiť, i.e. from the cosmos, and 20% from grain chi, i.e. their vegetarian diet.''


    Whether one believes meat is needed for a healthy body is not the point I'm trying to show, only that what was said mirrors the idea I'm portraying, As Above, So Below.

    I'll hit you up with a PM regarding the Dantien practice if you don't mind, I'm currently looking for revisions to be made in my practices since there's areas needing improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    As above; so below. As within; so without. As with the universe; so with the soul.” - Hermes

    I've been doing some deep thinking lately. Given the quote above, I'm wondering if Internal alchemy can bestow one the same benefits that physical alchemy can. Food for thought for right now.
    "Truth! Certainty! That in which there is no doubt!
    That which is above is from that which is below, and that which is below is from that which is above, working the miracles of one.
    As all things were from one."
    (Emerald Tablet, Hermes Trismegistus)

    Have you considered that the division between "internal" and "external" work might be false and they might, in truth, be one??

    “This stone is the thing which more than anything else is within you, created by God, and you are its prima materia, and it is extracted from you and wherever you will be it remains inseparable from you … and just as a man is composed of the four elements, so is the stone, and the (the stone) comes from man and you are its prima materia, namely on account of the procedure, and it is extracted from thee, namely on account of the science. In other words the object is within you, namely in Mercurius of the wise. You are its prima materia, it is included in you, you keep it hidden in you and it is extracted from you, as it is you who reduce it to its essence and dissolve it, because it cannot be completed without you and you cannot live without it, and thus the beginning reminds one of the end and vice, versa.” (Morienus)

    The internal work has always been an important facet according to the alchemists. I have yet to read an alchemist who neglected the internal or focused on the external exclusively. I would not discount their words on the importance of the internal.

    Alchemy without the internal work is just chemistry.

    Quote Originally Posted by tAlchemist View Post
    Let me know your thoughts. Could one achieve immortality through Neidan? Could one prolong life and restore themselves to their youth? Could one transmute gold with the use of Neidan?
    Yes, how can one transmute gold without it??

    "He meant by that verse the gold of the sages, which is their magnesia. But the people imagined it is the gold which is in their hands. Therefore they ruined it with different kinds of operations and they became tired and did not succeed." (Book of the Explanation of the Symbols, Muhammad ibn Umail)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopoe View Post
    Have you considered that the division between "internal" and "external" work might be false and they might, in truth, be one??
    Yeah I gave this some thought. But I stand with my reason that alchemy must exist on all levels of life. This is a universal and natural science in which all matters of life is involved in and operated by.
    “As above, so below, as within, so without, as the universe, so the soul” – Hermes Trismegistus

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopoe View Post
    Alchemy without the internal work is just chemistry.
    Tis true without lying, certain and most true.
    That which is below is like that which is above
    and that which is above is like that which is below
    to do the miracles of one only thing
    And as all things have been and arose from one by the mediation of one:
    so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
    - Emerald Tablet

    “As above, so below, as within, so without, as the universe, so the soul” – Hermes Trismegistus

    If alchemy without internal work is just chemistry, then how could alchemy exist in the natural world, from where the Alchemist ''imitates'' nature?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopoe View Post
    Yes, how can one transmute gold without it??
    Because ideally, people tend to think that only external alchemy i.e the Philosophers' Stone could perform this task, and not Neidan.

    All in all, thanks for sharing some interesting quotes and sharing your thoughts.

  6. #6
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    Just remember.
    Without the heat, the fluid will not turn into vitality.
    Engaging the parasympathetic is just as important as engaging the sympathetic.
    However sympathetic is extremely easy where as parasympathetic is the more unknown variable. One gives heat, the other gives temporary agitation/increase of qi.
    The immortal body should also be called the red body.
    Formerly known as Avaar186.

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    Thank you for your insight Avatar much appreciated.

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