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Thread: Alchemical & Magickal Symbolism in Religious/Spiritual Traditions & Ancient Alphabets

  1. #61
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    Imo Levi was influenced by official accusations against the Templars that said they worshiped Baphometh. And in order to denounce them, their opponents claimed it would be the devil.

    I am not saying that this view was 100% wrong, but quite one-sided and Levi used the typical devil symbols of early modern times (the goat stems from the alchemically also interesting greek god 'Pan', who, as most deities were rejected as diabolic by church officials back then.).

    A better and more interesting symbol of Baphometh is the head with three faces:



    or:


    which together with the double-headed Janus



    imo provides much better symbols than Levi's version.

    Levi was strange anyway. He claimed that since medieval times the upside down pentacle is a devil's symbol whereas the other way round it would be a positive one.

    This is not true , at least not for all areas. I know many churches with that upside down pentacle.
    Last edited by Florius Frammel; 1 Week Ago at 09:54 PM.

  2. #62
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    American Scythians lasted up to the 19th century. How such an ancient people ended up in america i would like to know.

    Drinking marrow/milk, liquids, from skull cups has an ancient origin with hunter gatherers. That's milk in the cup in your picture right ?.

    If the purpose was simply to break the skulls to extract the brain to eat it, there are much easier ways to do that.
    "If food was the objective, the skull would be highly fragmented. But here you can really see they tried to preserve most of the skull bone; the cut marks tell us they tried to clean the skull, taking off every piece of soft tissue so that they could then modify it very precisely. They were manufacturing something."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12478115

    Manufacturing skull cups. Why drink from a skull ?.Its not convenient. There are easier ways to make cups.

    Literature through the ages often alluded to marrow as the essence or central part, considered rich and nutritious as a food source, possessing warmth, energy, and inner heat, as well as being the seat of vitality and manliness. The Greek playwright Euripides (480–406 bc) noted: “Love must not touch the marrow of the soul. Our affections must be breakable chains that we can cast them off or tighten them.” A quote from Shakespeare's Macbeth: “Avaunt! And quit my sight! Let the earth hide thee! Thy bone is marrowless. Thy blood is cold; thou hast no speculation in those eyes which thou dost glare with.” Yet, in his chapter entitled “Bone Marrow: the Seedbed of Blood” in Wintrobe's Blood: Pure and Eloquent published in 1980, Tavassoli noted: “For centuries, poets, healers, and philosophers saw and described the close link between blood and life. Not so the marrow. Its role as the seed bed of blood lay hidden, like a seed in the soil”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3069519/

    Whatever liquids poured into a skull cup the marrow would eventually leach into.
    To specifically use bone to drink liquids out of, had a physical meaning of rejuvenation to ancient man. Long before any spiritual or religious meaning was attached to it.

    Baphomet, the alleged deific icon of the Knights Templar, has remained something of an enigma to scholars for centuries
    When tortured they told the truth describing Cernunnos as they knew him. Cernunnos is the celtic form of Pashupati.
    Meaning at some point Dravidian tribes were in Britain and the cultures mixed. The Templar were druids at a dangerous time to be pagan.
    They supposedly recounted a tale in which they found a shiva lingam under the temple in Jerusalem with depictions of Cernunnos, and realised the holiest site in Christendom
    had a pagan origin. Which was a threat to the Church. Pashupati is the earliest form of this god which influenced the creation of Cernunnos who later then became Baphomet.
    I think Levi knew greek and made up the name ?.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoas23 View Post
    I used to think the same and I have read about its origins. I think it is impossible to be 100% sure, but those who have studied the origins of the game (I certainly didn't, I have only read their conclusions) somehow agree that the influence is not really Qabalah, but Dante's Divine Comedy. The game seems to have been created in Italy during the Renaissance.

    The idea of the Divine Comedy makes sense... Whilst the graphic looks quite similar to the Tree of Life, it also makes sense to imagine that it's a simplified version of the structure of Hell, Purgatorio o Heaven (in the long run, they all have similar structures for Dante)... and whilst Qabalah was known by then, it's obvious that the Divine Comedy was by far more popular
    Wow. Where I lived we just called this "hopscotch". I didn't know there was anything behind it. But I don't think I ever hopscotch-ed in my life, so it could be that I just wasn't initiated into the hopscotch mysteries.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    I have not heard of Sefer Bahir before, google says the meaning is "Book of the Bright". These give much to think about, thank you for sharing Greg.

    Came across this doing more research and reading the verses you shared, it feels relevant.

    Psalm 139:13-18
    13 For you fashioned my inmost being,
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    14 I thank you because I am awesomely made,
    wonderfully; your works are wonders —
    I know this very well.
    15 My bones were not hidden from you
    when I was being made in secret,
    intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
    16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo,
    but in your book all my days were already written;
    my days had been shaped
    before any of them existed.
    17 God, how I prize your thoughts!
    How many of them there are!
    18 If I count them, there are more than grains of sand;
    if I finish the count, I am still with you.
    None of those quotes was even the one I was looking for, which mustn't have been in the Bahir. It was strange that those "clouds" came up in here when the same subject was a bit of a tangent for me the day before. I'm particularly reminded of many of Robert Fludd's images that feature these god-clouds.

    the quote fits about the "secret place", not so much the clouds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    Yes I agree with you 100% the land of India is a land of Fakirs, however there are some serious people going about their work there. I also don't know much about Blavatsky, but like Gurdijeff and Ouspensky I think she was a charlatan, but I am getting side tracked.
    That's pretty much my take.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    If it is cool Greg I would like to send you a message, I have only just started delving into the Kabalah seriously while I have some familiarity with it I need some real books to read, maybe you can help with that.
    sure, fire away.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    Any way, there are several things I wanted to bring out here first. Buddha was possibly an Indo Iranian who grew up around Zoroastrianism, he was a Scythian a culture that killed Zarathustra and brought with it one of the most important aspects of this part of the discussion.

    The Vedic and Scythian(persian) Zoroastrian influence on Greece .
    Also, Buddhist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

    One of the first subjects I ever researched was Buddha. Not so much by choice, but those were the first serious books I could find on anything adjacent to "esotericism". I've heard several different origin stories, and I don't hold any strong opinions on any of them. I'm not so sure that's important. I think it's about all the different things you end up learning about while trying to figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    But before we get into that, first a tantric Siddhar quote I am reminded of in response to the Buddhas warning
    I think maybe that goes a little too far, but that's probably the point.. I try to be somewhere in the middle.. “Everything in moderation, including moderation.”


    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    So the Holy Grail, Baphomet, the oblation and the tibetan skull cup.

    So here is a Kapala or a tibetan skull cup.

    Here is an in depth article by P.D. Newman
    http://www.knightstemplar.org/Knight...ictemplary.htm

    This article covers the connection in detail between these subjects. The end of this article should be of great importance here to this discussion.

    According to Von Hammer, the word Baphomet is most likely a combination of the two Greek words Baphe and Metis, the English translation of which is the Baptism of Wisdom - but as we shall see, the use of the word "baptism" here may have less to do with the physical act of submerging the body and raising it up out of water, and more to do with the ritualized act of imbibing of a certain libation from a sacred "cup." Such is the case in The Corpus Hermeticum, a collection of writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, the famed author of the Tabula Smaragdina or Emerald Tablet, wherein we read the following:

    "Reason indeed... among all men hath [Deity] distributed, but mind not yet; not that he grudgeth any, for grudging cometh not from him, but hath its place below, within the souls of men who have no mind... He willed, my son, to have it set up in the midst for souls, just as it were a prize... He filled a mighty cup with it, and sent it down, joining a Herald [to it], to whom He gave command to make this proclamation to the hearts of men: Baptize thyself with this cup's baptism,4 what heart can do so, thou that hast faith thou canst ascend to him that hath sent down the cup, thou that doest know for what thou didst come into being!" (The Cup or Monad, vv. 3 & 4)

    "The Knights Templar adopted the Crux decussata as their flag and emblem. They depicted it as crossed leg bones beneath a skull, supposedly as a reference to Golgotha, the Hill of Skulls, but perhaps not without knowledge of the [Gorgon head]…This is especially likely because in Templar lore the skull [was used] as a magical weapon, just as Perseus used the Gorgon head." 5

    "Perseus cut off [Medusa's] head and then used it as a "skull-cup" (skyphos) to teach the rite of Zoroaster to the Persians who took the name of Medes (Medoi) in honor of the Medusa."

    Baphomet, the alleged deific icon of the Knights Templar, has remained something of an enigma to scholars for centuries. The figure was described by some as having been a mysterious severed head which possessed magical qualities. However, the most well-known depiction of Baphomet comes from French occultist and Freemason Eliphas Levi's sketch of the same in his highly influential work The Dogma and Ritual of High Magic. In said book, Baphomet is depicted as being a winged, hermaphroditic hominid with the head and legs of a goat, but having the torso of a man. In our previous treatment of this subject (see "Masonic Templary: Modern Guardians of the Authentic Grail Tradition"1), it was established that the name of Baphomet was, in all probability, a coded reference to an initiatory ritual wherein was made use of a sacred grail of libation, fashioned from the skullcap of a severed head, that is a kapala or skull-cup. The precedent for such a rite has been set by ritual observances throughout the occident and orient alike. So, why then was Eliphas Levi, an occultist of no small amount of learning, apt to depict the figure as being related to a goat? Was Levi simply confused, or was he employing a blind in order to misdirect the eyes of the profane? These are the questions which will be treated in the following paragraphs.

    So I had my Templar phase. I try not to get into it. I have that quote from Foucault's Pendulum in the back of my mind all the time. As has already been stated in replies to this, that image of Baphomet is 100% the creation of Eliphas Levi. I don't think there's any source to this, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. There are the references to Baphomet in the trials of the Templars, and that's it.. Everything else is what people have made of it since. I like Levi a lot, but I have a feeling his sources were limited and a lot of what he writes about everything are his own.. contemplations.

    There are a few different things I've read about this head and name. One is that it's the head of John the Baptist (Salome had demanded his head on a platter). In some sects, J the B is actually superior to Jesus, Jesus being reduced to the public face of JBs teaching. The "Bearded face" is also a pretty big topic in Kabbalah. "baphomet" has been suggested to be a corruption of "Muhammed". (the way it may have sounded to European ears).

    A long time ago I read "The Essene Odyssey" by Hugh Schonfield. He was one of the researchers involved with the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery. I'm guessing because of the popularity of the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" series of books at the time (1984), he includes an appendix "The Essenes and the Templars". I was into it at the time, but looking back it's kind of cringey.

    Long story short, he "discovered" that the writers of the DSS were using the Atbash cipher in some of their documents, and he applied it to "Baphomet":

    "The mysteries here referred to have never been explained. But the evidences of links with Essene lore suggested to me that these reports might have a foundation in fact. I decided to treat the obviously artificial name Baphomet as another case of the use of the Hebrew Atbash cipher for purposes of concealment. Setting down Baphomet in Hebrew characters produced 0-:1, which by Atbash converted immediately into (Sophia), the Greek word for Wisdom ). So this centuries old secret was for the first time revealed!
    But what about the bearded male head? In the cosmic figure of the Adam Kadmon (Sky Man) the bearded male head is denominated in Hebrew as (Chokmah), i.e. Wisdom.5 The Greek Sophia represents a female rather than a male, and we are not surprised to find in Templar hands, according to Inquisition records, a casket surmounted by "a great head of gilded silver, most beautiful, and constituting the image of a woman. "

    It would seem that the Templars, whether through the Cathacs or independently, had access to Gnostic mythology which in turn had derived from extremely ancient cosmological interpretations. In the Bible there is an echo in Proverbs viii, where Wisdom (feminine), like the masculine Logos (Word) ofJohn's Gospel, was in the Beginning with God, and beside Him when He created the Earth. But in Proverbs Wisdom is contrasted with Folly, represented in the previous chapter by a harlot. Whereas in the Gnostic systems Wisdom was captured by the Powers of the material world and forced to prostitute herself. It was to redeem her, and thus "restore all things", that the Archetypal Man appeared on Earth."
    It's interesting that he starts at the same place as Von Hammer, for different reasons.

    Here's something someone said to me once:

    The Acacia bush has both red and white flowers, symbolising the conscious mind & the subconscious mind, (see the card of the The High Priestess). Black is the colour of death. X marks the spot. It's the sign of the Skull & Crossbones. The treasure is buried deep in the place of the Skull. Not a exoteric place, but an esoteric place. Inside the Skull is the source of the universal mind. Not the conscious ego, (Red), not even the more humble subconscious, (White Virgin, but now blood stained by the conscious mind), but the unconscious universal mind, (The Black Virgin).

    This is where the spirit comes out from the void/emptiness, the Black Madonna/Sophia/Isis, who also has other names attributed to her, including Hecate, hence the Hecatomb. She carries the sun and moon under her feet, (revelations).

    Are you ready for this? The Captain Kidd maps were never meant to be read exoterically. Nor was many of the books in the OT and the Gospel stories. They are based loosely on a cast of characters who were real people, but these characters never existed in the conscious sense of how the literal texts (mans word), has portrayed them. There is only one sense in which the neophyte, (knight), must read these books, and it is not in the sense of the conscious ego.
    But he turned and said to Peter, (the conscious ego), get thee behind me, Satan; thou art an offence unto me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.- Matthew 16:23

    Hermes is Thrice Greatest

    There is so much more, but i feel it would encourage the redness of the conscious ego to censor it. So, i shall therefore rest my fingers from this keyboard for now.

  6. #66
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    Teraphim

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    That's pretty much my take.


    So I had my Templar phase. I try not to get into it. I have that quote from Foucault's Pendulum in the back of my mind all the time. As has already been stated in replies to this, that image of Baphomet is 100% the creation of Eliphas Levi. I don't think there's any source to this, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. There are the references to Baphomet in the trials of the Templars, and that's it.. Everything else is what people have made of it since. I like Levi a lot, but I have a feeling his sources were limited and a lot of what he writes about everything are his own.. contemplations.



    There are a few different things I've read about this head and name. One is that it's the head of John the Baptist (Salome had demanded his head on a platter). In some sects, J the B is actually superior to Jesus, Jesus being reduced to the public face of JBs teaching. The "Bearded face" is also a pretty big topic in Kabbalah. "baphomet" has been suggested to be a corruption of "Muhammed". (the way it may have sounded to European ears).


    A long time ago I read "The Essene Odyssey" by Hugh Schonfield. He was one of the researchers involved with the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery. I'm guessing because of the popularity of the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" series of books at the time (1984), he includes an appendix "The Essenes and the Templars". I was into it at the time, but looking back it's kind of cringey.

    Long story short, he "discovered" that the writers of the DSS were using the Atbash cipher in some of their documents, and he applied it to "Baphomet":



    It's interesting that he starts at the same place as Von Hammer, for different reasons.

    Here's something someone said to me once:
    I have only just started to learn about Eliphas Levi, reading his books atm, and have not quite formed an opinion on him or his work

    I have a theory that the Knights Templar were in fact in possession of what they probably were told was the severed head of John the Baptist. The old testament Jews were known to practice pagan ritual magic and were in the practice of making Teraphim. It stands to reason some of the riches recovered from protecting wandering Jews and other Christians from the middle east would have been some of their family heirlooms.


    This is from an article about Jewish and Christian Necromancy

    In a famous biblical passage, Rachel steals the teraphim of her father,
    Laban, and flees from Harran together with Jacob (Gen 31:19). Later
    rabbinic tradition offered some very intriguing explanations of the
    nature and function of these somewhat mysterious teraphim.
    In Pirqe de Rabbi Eliezer (PRE) we read: “God came to Laban the
    Aramaean in a dream … [and Laban says to Jacob]: “yet wherefore hast
    thou stolen my Teraphim, which I worshipped? “What are the
    Teraphim? They slay a man, a firstborn, and he is red (in colour). All
    that a man requires (to know) is not written here. This is impossible,
    since the men who dispute about the knowledge of making (the
    Teraphim) have increased. Everyone who follows that knowledge will
    ultimately go down to Gehinnom. And they pinch off his dead, and
    salt it with salt (and spices), and they write upon a golden plate the
    name of an unclean (spirit), and place it under his tongue, and they
    put it in the wall, and they kindle lamps before it, and bow down to it,
    and it speaks to them. Whence do we know that the Teraphim speak?
    Because it is said, “For the Teraphim have spoken vanity” (Zech. X.2).

    Here is another source I remembered later in the book of Jasher verse 31 : 41 - 43

    41 And this is the manner of the images; in taking a man who is the first born and slaying him and taking the hair off his head, and taking salt and salting the head and anointing it in oil, then taking a small tablet of copper or a tablet of gold and writing the name upon it, and placing the tablet under his tongue, and taking the head with the tablet under the tongue and putting it in the house, and lighting up lights before it and bowing down to it.

    42 And at the time when they bow down to it, it speaketh to them in all matters that they ask of it, through the power of the name which is written in it.

    43 And some make them in the figures of men, of gold and silver, and go to them in times known to them, and the figures receive the influence of the stars, and tell them future things, and in this manner were the images which Rachel stole from her father.

    Here is a little bit more detail from an article published in 2019 I googled

    PRE begins the explanation of the biblical teraphim with the
    description of their preparation, which would first require the
    slaughtering of a first-born man, “red in color”.

    The text implies that
    the knowledge of the preparation of the teraphim was quite
    widespread. It further explains, that the “manufacturing” of the
    teraphim would prescribe the severing of the head of the victim from
    his body. Then the head would have to be prepared using salt and
    spices, probably for its better preservation. A golden plate inscribed
    with the name of an “unclean spirit” would be placed under its
    tongue, which, as is implied in the text, animates the head and
    enables it to “talk”. The practitioners of this “occult” knowledge will
    be punished in the Gehenna.5
    This story is attested in a few other rabbinic sources as well. In
    Midrash Tanhuma (Parashat Va-Yetze 12), as in PRE, the victim should
    be a first-born man but the type of necromancy is nearly identical.
    The Tanhuma adds an etymological explanation of the name of the
    teraphim: “Why are they called teraphim? Because they were works
    of toreph (filth), works of uncleanness”. Furthermore, this passage
    specifies that the name on the golden plate is that of a demon and that they also perform “certain magical rites”, when putting it under
    the tongue. The head is then placed in an already available niche in
    the wall, where the head would speak in a whisper.6 The belief that
    the demons would operate through the idols was, of course, very
    common in polemical literature against idolatry, as already
    demonstrated in the Bible.


    The textual evidence implies that this
    was a common practice – albeit the rabbinic texts do not specify its
    origins or practitioners. Accordingly, the use of the teraphim by
    Laban is placed in a broader cultural and religious context.

    and the final piece I wanted to share from this article

    Finally, the story is included in the medieval midrashic
    compilation, Sefer ha-Yashar (31.41).9 The special cultic preparation
    of the head before its acquiring a divinatory “quality” is reiterated.
    This text adds that “they” would first take off the hair of the headstressing, perhaps, in this way, its appearance like a skull. Moreover,
    this text emphasises that it is the “name” written upon the golden
    plate that animates the head. This passage suggests that alternatively,
    manmade, anthropomorphic idols manufactured with precious metals
    could similarly be used. Significantly, the magical power attributed to
    the figures (or the heads) was explained as an influence by the
    planets. Accordingly, the future-telling activity was linked here with
    astrological as well as alchemical beliefs.

    There is a lot going on here for certain, something interesting connecting the Templars, the Holy Grail,the Four Tarot Cards, talking skulls and skull cups. Eliphas Levi would probably have something interesting to say about it.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    I have a theory that the Knights Templar were in fact in possession of what they probably were told was the severed head of John the Baptist. The old testament Jews were known to practice pagan ritual magic and were in the practice of making Teraphim. It stands to reason some of the riches recovered from protecting wandering Jews and other Christians from the middle east would have been some of their family heirlooms.
    Don't forget the European "Crypto-Jews".

    Crypto-Judaism is the secret adherence to Judaism while publicly professing to be of another faith; practitioners are referred to as "crypto-Jews" (origin from Greek kryptos – κρυπτός, 'hidden').

    The term is especially applied historically to Spanish Jews who outwardly professed Catholicism,[1][2][3][4][5] also known as Anusim or Marranos. The phenomenon is especially associated with renaissance Spain, following the 6 June, 1391, Anti-Jewish pogroms and the expulsion of the Jews in 1492
    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    This is from an article about Jewish and Christian Necromancy
    Well this material sent me off on some research. If i've come across this stuff before I didn't pay it any attention. You asked about Kabbalah sources. Nowadays I have a pretty good collection of jewish kabbalah in english.

    I have both Pirkei De Rabbi Eliezer and Yashar.. I know I collected multiple copies of Yashar and kept the best. But I haven't done much with them, to be honest. But I ended up in the Pirkei just the other day. I was tracking down citations/footnotes from other books. I actually went searching for it before I realized I already had it. It is mentioned a lot in Kabbalah, although not specifically "Kabbalistic". It does deal a lot with "Creation" (cosmogony) and the works of the chariot. Those two aren't hard to find though, I think they are even on archive.org

    What stood out in Pirkei is unlike your quote, I didn't see a single reference to "God". Every place you'd expect to read "God", "The Holy One, Blessed be He". In kabbalistic works, this is pretty much ALWAYS a reference to the Sefirot Tiferet. But in rabbanic literature it stands in for the "revealed god" in these experiences of "Theophany" (which IS the Tiferet/Metatron of Kabbalah, but thats a different story).

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    compilation, Sefer ha-Yashar (31.41).9 The special cultic preparation
    Wow. That's a pretty useful approximation of pi. (3.14159)

    Quote Originally Posted by White Belt View Post
    I have only just started to learn about Eliphas Levi, reading his books atm, and have not quite formed an opinion on him or his work
    [..]
    There is a lot going on here for certain, something interesting connecting the Templars, the Holy Grail,the Four Tarot Cards, talking skulls and skull cups. Eliphas Levi would probably have something interesting to say about it.
    I like him quite a bit. This all among some of the first things I read about. The whole "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" series, a few templar/masonic books that would have been in mainstream bookstores at the time. "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" was at the public library.. But then, I "found" Scholem's "Kabbalah" and Levi's "History of Magic" at the same time, and it changed everything for me.

    It turned out I had excerpts copied out from websites on the early internet, and I had a "mentor" that kept mentioning him to me like I was far more familiar with him then I was at the time. (I didn't even remember having him in my notes). He comes up a lot in Tarot research which I didn't figure out til very recently. I looked for the source of Franckenberg's "Key to the House of David" several times over the course of years before I found it, and right after that, the connection to Levi's ideas on the Tarot.

    Here's some of that cryptic shit that "mentor" would hit me with back then. For example, I didn't have even History of Magic until August of '98. I really had almost no idea about anything he was talking about at the time.

    05/06/1998
    Hi Greg:
    The name 'Eliphas Levi' probably means nothing to anyone in this illustrious [forum], as he is seldom if ever mentioned here. (Gary might know of him, and that's about it.) Be that as it may, Levi 'predicted' the return of The Man in 1996. Not the two witnesses - but the original son of Man, or Son of man. Bear in mind that Levi is, in fact, the founder of modern FM. [Freemasonry]

    Now, are you people not aware of the fact that Michel [Nostradamus] is a figure of great importance to the Freemasons? Why do you suppose that is? (And I'll give you a hint: It has nothing to do with the fact that he provided plenty of laffs at Shriners' conventions.)

    You have so little time left to solve the mystery it's pathetic. What a waste of GREY MATTER. (BTW, that's another clue, Aron. Who the hell is Enmenduranna? He has nothing to do with the Egyptians.)

    That idiot Crowley thought he was a reincarnation of Levi. (LOL) He claimed he was born on the day that Levi died.

    >Don't you realize tht I
    > have the whole story of that figured out? I posted it several times.

    I did respond to that. As Nixon once said to Kruschev (sp?), "In some ways you may be superior to us. And in some instances we may be superior to you. After all, you don't know everything." ;o)

    The point is, Levi was very specific in regards to this prophecy. He said the Man in Question would emerge from central Europe, and that he would identify himself when a certain Lodge had attained 7000 members.

    > I know this.

    But why, Greg? Why is he important?

    > There's no stopping.

    Is that anything like "You can't stop it." The only obstacle to preventing the destruction of the Adversary is the Messianic Deception. Christian hegemony may be too pervasive to overcome. Those nitwits can't even identify the enemy by name. How can they defeat him with a word? (Are you familiar with Luther's great hymn?)
    There was other stuff but I can't find it easily right now.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    I've run across Cusa and I may have even downloaded some titles but haven't gotten to him yet. Or maybe I browsed through them and there weren't many diagrams. There's a a couple of other names that come up in relation to this and other subjects.. Colonna(sp?) and Della Porta.

    There are connections here to the "learned image".. and Tarot and Masonic systems. There's another monk, Thomas Murner....
    There is a book presenting Nicholas of Cusa's original notes (in Latin) regarding what he learned from Lull.

    https://www.amazon.de/Cusanus-Texte-...5805813&sr=8-1

    It leaves little doubt about the former's influence on the latter - and via him on Bruno.

    I suppose that you already know Yates' wonderful collection of essays Lull and Bruno?

    I know what you are talking about.. pseudo-Gerber.. pseudo-Lullian, pseudo-paracelsus (thinking of Dorn in particular with that one). With the exception of Gerber, Lull is probably the grand-daddy to them all, he was so long ago.. centuries before printing.
    Uhum, that would be Geber. Indeed, Newman showed that Lull's Testamentum was heavily influenced by Geber's magnum opus (yeah, that was a pun ) Summa Perfectionis, albeit quite possibly not directly, but by mediation of Arnald of Villanova's Rosarium, the latter being essentially a commentary on the Summa. I find this interesting particularly in light of the old story how Lull learned the secret of the Philosopher's Stone from Arnald.

    I haven't even heard rumours of genuine original manuscripts. The earliest Lullian material I have is about 1420. I mentioned this text that was new to me, "Geometria Nova".. I'm pretty sure this the translators make a big deal out of the number of different manuscripts they consulted - it points to an original source somewhere.
    Well, as late as 1922, the German alchemy historian Ernst Darmstaedter believed the Lullian texts to be genuine. And while more recently, no academic put their reputation on the line by suggesting that some of those texts may indeed have been written by Lull, Yates was rather intrigued by the coherence existing between Lull's and alchemical pseudo-Lull's works (see The Art of Memory). And Thorndike was impressed by the consistency found throughout the extensive corpus of alchemical books once ascribed to the Catalanian philosopher.

    As a matter of fact, some of those texts carry dates from the earlier part of the fourteenth century, so they could have actually been authored by him accordingly. However, as there are no original manuscripts extant dating back that far, modern scholarship considers all of them to be spurious. That may be correct, and I won't be loosing any sleep over the question. Suffice it to say that to generations of alchemists, Lull was one of their eternal heros, and in the context of alchemy, it still seems like a good idea to study his 'genuine' and his 'spurious' writings in unison.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    There is a book presenting Nicholas of Cusa's original notes (in Latin) regarding what he learned from Lull.

    https://www.amazon.de/Cusanus-Texte-...5805813&sr=8-1

    It leaves little doubt about the former's influence on the latter - and via him on Bruno.

    I suppose that you already know Yates' wonderful collection of essays Lull and Bruno?
    Actually, I didn't, even though it's mentioned on her wikipedia entry. I don't seem to be able to find a pdf of it easily either, which I guess is the reason. Now I'm wondering what other work of hers Warburg might have online.

    I was more aware of de Cusa than I originally thought when I replied, I did have some information about him saved away, specifically about his "diagrams" which I still have yet to see. But after that I did find https://jasper-hopkins.info/ and all his translations of Cusanus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Uhum, that would be Geber.
    I can't help it. I'm powerless. I can be looking right at the name and still type it like that. The only thing I know for sure is that if he keeps coming up, I'll do it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Indeed, Newman showed that Lull's Testamentum was heavily influenced by Geber's magnum opus (yeah, that was a pun ) Summa Perfectionis, albeit quite possibly not directly, but by mediation of Arnald of Villanova's Rosarium, the latter being essentially a commentary on the Summa. I find this interesting particularly in light of the old story how Lull learned the secret of the Philosopher's Stone from Arnald.
    Which Rosary is this? What we know as Rosarium Philosophorum, which may or may not be by Arnald, or the "little" rosary that is more firmly attributed to him? I went down a rabbit hole trying to piece this together from what I could find, ending up none the wiser at the end. I still haven't seen the "little" Rosary to compare to R.P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
    Well, as late as 1922, the German alchemy historian Ernst Darmstaedter believed the Lullian texts to be genuine. And while more recently, no academic put their reputation on the line by suggesting that some of those texts may indeed have been written by Lull, Yates was rather intrigued by the coherence existing between Lull's and alchemical pseudo-Lull's works (see The Art of Memory). And Thorndike was impressed by the consistency found throughout the extensive corpus of alchemical books once ascribed to the Catalanian philosopher.

    As a matter of fact, some of those texts carry dates from the earlier part of the fourteenth century, so they could have actually been authored by him accordingly. However, as there are no original manuscripts extant dating back that far, modern scholarship considers all of them to be spurious. That may be correct, and I won't be loosing any sleep over the question. Suffice it to say that to generations of alchemists, Lull was one of their eternal heros, and in the context of alchemy, it still seems like a good idea to study his 'genuine' and his 'spurious' writings in unison.
    I think the earliest manuscripts could be trusted to be genuine/sincere in their intent to faithfully transmit Lullian teachings.

    I have a bunch of Thorndyke "collected", several copies of the History of Magic volumes (trying to find a quality one).. and a bunch of smaller works.. but other than making sure they were searchable, I haven't done anything with them.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Marcus View Post
    Actually, I didn't, even though it's mentioned on her wikipedia entry. I don't seem to be able to find a pdf of it easily either, which I guess is the reason. Now I'm wondering what other work of hers Warburg might have online.
    Well, I strongly urge the researcher of ancient natural philosophy not to exclusively rely on online sources. There will be so much they are missing out on!

    I was more aware of de Cusa than I originally thought when I replied, I did have some information about him saved away, specifically about his "diagrams" which I still have yet to see. But after that I did find https://jasper-hopkins.info/ and all his translations of Cusanus.
    However, it goes without saying that some online resources are potentially valuable indeed - such as the one you have linked here.

    I can't help it. I'm powerless. I can be looking right at the name and still type it like that. The only thing I know for sure is that if he keeps coming up, I'll do it again.
    I do understand your dilemma. Perhaps it will help to bear in mind that the term "gibberish" (no "r" there!) was coined alluding to the alleged unintelligibility of Geber's writings? Starting with his very name in some cases, as it now seems...

    Which Rosary is this? What we know as Rosarium Philosophorum, which may or may not be by Arnald, or the "little" rosary that is more firmly attributed to him? I went down a rabbit hole trying to piece this together from what I could find, ending up none the wiser at the end. I still haven't seen the "little" Rosary to compare to R.P.
    I was referring to the Rosarium or Rosarius that was published 1504 as part of Arnald's Works, and not to the Rosarium Philosophorum which first appeared in print in 1550, albeit Joachim Telle stated that the latter was based on an earlier - and quite different - manuscript version that doesn't seem to have come down to us in its original form. Anyway, I consider the occasional attribution of the Rosarium Philosophorum to Arnald as nothing more than the result of yet another confusion that persists to this very day.

    BTW, whereas the researchers of Arnald's medical works have come to agree to consider all his alchemical texts spurious, Thorndike (whose treatment of Arnald still stands without equal) believed at least some of them to be genuine. Those writings would certainly be in line with Arnald's other occultist interests and personally, I have seen no compelling reason so far to assume that the more prominent ones, at any rate, were not actually written by him. (While in Lull's case, I am not as convinced of him being the author of alchemical texts.)

    I think the earliest manuscripts could be trusted to be genuine/sincere in their intent to faithfully transmit Lullian teachings.
    Indeed. Their author (or authors) demonstrates great familiarity with Lull's genuine writings as well as with the other works of the alchemical corpus bearing his name.

    I have a bunch of Thorndyke "collected", several copies of the History of Magic volumes (trying to find a quality one).. and a bunch of smaller works.. but other than making sure they were searchable, I haven't done anything with them.
    Trust me, there is nothing like having all eight tomes of Thorndike's monumental work standing on your book shelf in physical form.

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