Lucid Dreaming

[Andro]

I have lots of experience in lucid dreaming but never had an OBE except very few times in dreams. In my opinion OBE has nothing to do with lucid dreaming, you don't need it for the lucid dream. Actually you don't need it to visit other realms while being awake either.

I've never understood why someone would like to leave the body and why he thinks it to be helpfull for anything.

@Andro, maybe you have an answer to this?

Hello and welcome!

Since you admittedly haven't had any significant OOB excursions to assign any accumulated experiential value to this modus of exploration, it's understandable that you've never understood the potential benefits and how if may be helpful.

And why do you think a sense of identity acts as ballast? Ballast for which activity? Leaving the body or lucid dreaming?

Both. Having a strong anchor in one's perceived sense of individualized "self" is just that: an anchor. It's simultaneously comforting and limiting.

[zoas23]

There are several techniques of Lucid Dreaming in Tibetan Buddhism.... However the techniques would not surprise ANYONE who has been reading occidental books on the subject, they are mostly identical.

Probably the main difference is that there are 4 kinds of dreams (in some lineages)... somehow related to 4 different areas of life, though the point is to visit the 4 types.

Maybe the HUGE difference is the sense of them: it is mostly a preparation for the "dream" that comes after death and being prepared to be "lucid" there instead of getting lost in that "afterlife dream".

The other HUGE difference I see is a fifth stage, which may eventually happen after dominating the Lucid Dreams: being able to eliminate the illusion of the images and somehow "meditate" in Lucid way during dreams... or to be sleeping, but "mentally awake" and meditating. Of course, this last thing is not easy. As to steal a phrase from Andro (which I will poorly quote): no interruption of consciousness between the state of being awake and the state of being asleep... AND the same kind of control (during a dream) that it is possible to have during a deep meditation. And no, I am not able to do such thing.

[Andro]

Maybe the HUGE difference is the sense of them: it is mostly a preparation for the "dream" that comes after death and being prepared to be "lucid" there instead of getting lost in that "afterlife dream".

This seems to be the goal of the more advanced practices in traditions such as Bon/Dzogchen/Dream Yoga/etc... Navigating the "Bardos" so as to not get caught in all the ensnaring BS "afterlife" narratives, and eventually attaining the "Great Perfection" or the "Natural State" or the "Ultimate Reality", etc...

The other HUGE difference I see is a fifth stage, which may eventually happen after dominating the Lucid Dreams: being able to eliminate the illusion of the images and somehow "meditate" in Lucid way during dreams... or to be sleeping, but "mentally awake" and meditating. Of course, this last thing is not easy. As to steal a phrase from Andro (which I will poorly quote): no interruption of consciousness between the state of being awake and the state of being asleep... AND the same kind of control (during a dream) that it is possible to have during a deep meditation. And no, I am not able to do such thing.

This state is indeed attainable, and those "Sparks of Awareness" who have directly known it (selflessly, there is no other way), when re-entering their respective selves/identities, report pretty much the same "thing", to the limiting extent to which it can be put in words.

[elixirmixer]

Getting into a lucid dreaming state is one thing....

My question is, what are you suppose to be doing once youre there?

[Uambra]

Since you admittedly haven't had any significant OOB excursions to assign any accumulated experiential value to this modus of exploration, it's understandable that you've never understood the potential benefits and how if may be helpful.

lol, that sounds a little bit like: "You didn't experience OBE, so you shouldn't ask about it." I do have experience in traveling into other realms in trance and of lucid dreaming. So I am quite sure that OBE is kind of a portal to enter those realms, but it's not the only existing portal. Comparing my OBE within lucid dreams to floating through the dream without an OBE at the beginning, there is no difference at all. So from my experience I say: a lucid dream is a lucid dream, no matter whether you have an OBE or not.

But I am curious about your opinion/experience about OBE and traveling around. What do you think are the benefits and how may OBE be helpful? Do you think there are realms you can enter _only_ through OBE? And if this is so, would you like to tell a little bit more about these realms? When you have an OBE, do you still feel your body in some way and perceive sounds or other sensual impressions of your surrounding? Or is it more like being asleep and not being aware of the body (at least to a certain extent)?

Both. Having a strong anchor in one's perceived sense of individualized "self" is just that: an anchor. It's simultaneously comforting and limiting.

I wouldn't have used the image of an anchor for identity, but let's just elaborate this a little bit: Every ship has an anchor, it's a very important tool. But although every ship has an anchor it can sail over the sea. You just have to know how to use the anchor. Pull it up into the ship and travel on, throw it out to the ground and rest for a while or do some tricky maneuvers.

Yes, I do experience limits and I am sure you do that too. Maybe - since we have different approaches - I have limits where you haven't and the other way round. Where you can go and especially where you _want_ to go, with which realms and entities you communicate and interact, depends on who you are! We are individuals, so we are choosing different ways. Of course we are all human beings, which means there are roads open to everybody and where many people walk along. But there are more hidden paths not easy to find and here it strongly depends on who you are, whether you find it and travel this way. (And being who you are means having a sense of identity, right? )

So you are experiencing limits while being aware of your identity? Would you like to tell me what kind of limits you mean? Which borders can't you cross with a sense of identity, but can without a sense of identity?

For me a strong identity is very important. It is part of my inner philosopher's stone, telling me about trueness and falseness both on my spiritual journeys and in daily life. It is connecting me to life, to my deep feelings, to my intuition and instinct and to the spiritual realms ...

[Andro]

lol, that sounds a little bit like: "You didn't experience OBE, so you shouldn't ask about it."

I've never understood why someone would like to leave the body and why he thinks it to be helpfull for anything.

Actually, you did more than merely ask about it. You clearly stated that you don't understand why it (OBE) would be helpful for anything.

For me a strong identity is very important.

No problem. But to KNOW the "Ultimate Reality" of "Pure Awareness", it cannot be done through ANY structural filters of "Self" or "Identity". You have to "leave ALL your garments at the door", so to speak ... Only Awareness can directly know Awareness (the non-dual way). When (or IF) we return to our sense of self/identity, the Spark of Awareness (sometimes referred to as "Gottesfunk") re-enters our (temporary/transitory) Identity-Construct/Costume, which makes it possible for us to talk about it, although it will most likely be a rather poor approximation.

I will not elaborate on my own journeys of exploration or on the mechanics of OBE, this is not the place for it, there is plenty of quite reliable printed material on the topic (Robert Monroe, etc...) and there are also limits to what I am willing to share publicly. Robert Monroe kept a lot of his experiences to himself as well. His last book (Ultimate Journey) was severely cut/edited/watered down before being published. His stepdaughter told me the details when I met her in person in 2001. As for myself, I'm a better speaker than writer. But I'm glad to hear you are an explorer yourself, that's wonderful.

[zoas23]

This seems to be the goal of the more advanced practices in traditions such as Bon/Dzogchen/Dream Yoga/etc... Navigating the "Bardos" so as to not get caught in all the ensnaring BS "afterlife" narratives, and eventually attaining the "Great Perfection" or the "Natural State" or the "Ultimate Reality", etc...

Exactly,just like the Bardo Todol (even if it's more popular in the West than among the Tibetan Buddhist of the East, who respect it, but it's not THE book). What comes after physical death is somehow like a "dream" and you have THREE chances of doing something right (the first chance is the "best one", the second chance is quite good, the last chance is not so amazing, but still good.... and if you miss those 3 chances, then it's not a tragedy, but it's not ideal -probably a not so amazing incarnation). So, yeah, it's a practice during life as to use those "chances".
The OTHER use is to receive messages that involve practices or teaching, but NOT everyone has the "legitimacy" to do it (or maybe everyone has that legitimacy, but they won't get "cannonic" unless the person has some previous recognition). The "Goddesses" (they are not exactly "Goddesses", somehow "spirits" or "deities", there isn't an amazing ranslation -Dakinis or Khandromas) deliver those teachings.

This state is indeed attainable, and those "Sparks of Awareness" who have directly known it (selflessly, there is no other way), when re-entering their respective selves/identities, report pretty much the same "thing", to the limiting extent to which it can be put in words.

Yes, the point is get rid of the "illusion" of dreams... as to understand the illusions of life later.
The techniques are probably more complex than the usual ones in the West (mudras, mantras, focusing on different "chakras" of the body as to arrive to the "correct" type of dream).... but in the long run, the techniques are quite similar, the main difference is the symbolism and probably the "philosophy", but the technique in its most practical way is exactly the same.

[Uambra]

Actually, you did more than merely ask about it. You clearly stated that you don't understand why it (OBE) would be helpful for anything.

Yeah, I had quite a fresh start into this thread. I didn't intend it to sound like that, that's why I wrote more about my experiences, impressions and thoughts in my second posting. But not having understood something in the past doesn't mean it's of no interest for me or that I am not able to understand it, if someone tells me about it. Although I've been in some German forums about magic, I never had the opportunity to ask someone about his experiences with OBE.

I have meditated about OBE before I've send my last posting, so I can at least imagine how it is to have an OBE. Since you said, that OBE is quite helpful, I would have liked to hear more about this from your experience.

I will not elaborate on my own journeys of exploration or on the mechanics of OBE, this is not the place for it, there is plenty of quite reliable printed material on the topic (Robert Monroe, etc...) ...
... As for myself, I'm a better speaker than writer.

Thank you for the recommendation of the book, but I have so many books in my reading list, I won't add this one. I don't want to read about it, I would have loved to talk about it and exchange experiences.

It's absolutely okay for me if you don't want to talk about it. You have your reasons and I respect them. And you are right, talking about it is much better than writing about it.

to KNOW the "Ultimate Reality" of "Pure Awareness", it cannot be done through ANY structural filters of "Self" or "Identity". You have to "leave ALL your garments at the door", so to speak ...

Oh, you are walking in this direction. Alright, then I understand why you say identity is ballast. This is absolute standard for most mystical teachings. I've been following these roads too for more than ten years (having a Guru, who taught about the Yogasutras of Patanjali, practicing asanas, pranayama (Kriya Yoga to be more precise), chanting mantras, meditating mantras, Nirbija Yoga and so on).

Then I realized that I was going in the wrong direction. My dreams were telling me from the beginning, becoming more intense every year, until it became horror. Dreams accompanied me my whole life and I loved them right from the start. But I didn't know much about the meaning of dreams back then. I was sad my dreams were talking so badly about my beloved guru and this wonderful way to find the experience of Pure Awarness and God. I just couldn't imagine why they were so severe about it.

When I realized that this path didn't provide any wisdom to me - and my guru, who claimed to be an incarnation of Shiva and to experience samadhi, wasn't very wise too - I chose another direction for my life. I would have learned much more during these years if I had listened more carefully to my dreams and sought for their profound meaning, instead of denying myself every day for the aim of Pure Awareness/Gottesfunke. But of course I respect the choice of everybody who loves to walk along these paths.

Finding my way back to lucid dreams: for understanding a dream it is very important to find out _who_ is walking through the dream. Very often we don't dream from the perspective of our daily consciousness but from the view of aspects deep inside who come to the surface to solve problems, to be integrated into life and to establish a stronger and deeper identity. Of course I don't think "who am I, who am I, who am I" while dreaming and interacting with my dreams (may they be lucid or not). Being connected to your identity doesn't mean to focus on it all the time. When we are empathic with other persons, realms and beings or identify ourself with stories or just meld into the beauty of nature or into the experience of gods, there is not so much focus on our identity. But it is no ballast for me at all and I rely on my identity although I am not focussed on it. I even can meld into another being and being aware of my identity at the same time, the experience is different, that's all. And as I wrote before, sometimes it is very important to have a sense of identity, especially when you are on a difficult and complex passage.

Thank you for your answers, Andro, they have inspired me to contemplate about all this and to express at least some of my thoughts and experiences. It's always a great joy when I can learn.

[Uambra]

Getting into a lucid dreaming state is one thing....

My question is, what are you suppose to be doing once youre there?

It depends on your actual situation, your spiritual focus and so on. Of course you can just ask the dream: tell me, what am I supposed to be doing now? Sometimes it's much fun to interact with the dream or just to float through it or to walk down a road and enjoy the bright and colorful light. If you are working on some issue during day, you can ask the dream about it or seek for something or someone who can tell more about it. Dreams have their own language though, so it's up to you to try to understand it when you wake up.

[Andro]

I've been following these roads too for more than ten years (having a Guru, who taught about the Yogasutras of Patanjali, practicing asanas, pranayama (Kriya Yoga to be more precise), chanting mantras, meditating mantras, Nirbija Yoga and so on).

I've found such aids (gurus, mantras, etc.) to be quite unnecessary (but maybe that's just me...) Especially when\if it comes to (IMO) unnecessarily over-complicated practices and gurus with inflated egos. Except perhaps for Dream Yoga, which it appears you've already been practicing, in your own way, for quite some time.

You can still have a lot of fun with your current persona. Yet, placing too much importance on it wouldn't be too liberating either. But still, on the other extreme of the spectrum, denial of the current Self, as flimsy and transient as it may be, doesn't work. Castaneda's "controlled folly" is (for example) a much better and relatively ballast-less way of dealing with the world(s) of the Tonal.