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Thread: Liberate Plant Teachers

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    Liberate Plant Teachers

    I endorse this post brought to you by The International Center for Ethnobotanical Education, Research, and Service (ICEERS), which is a non-profit organization dedicated to transforming society’s relationship with psychoactive plants.

    We’re staring in the face of a fifth mass extinction... plant teachers are getting caught in the nets of drug control. Indigenous and non-indigenous people who work with these plants − such as ayahuasca, iboga, mushrooms, coca, and others − are being prosecuted for their roles as facilitators, curanderos, healers, and teachers. Read more.



    How you can help:

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    Share the campaign video through your networks. We rely on sharing to get the word out far and wide.

    Tell your story! We welcome testimonies and stories that illustrate the importance of ending the criminalization of these practices. Share a testimony or story to vouch for ICEERS and the Ayahuasca Defense Fund.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


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    I just listened to a report on Ayahuasca on the radio and the indigenous people said some interesting things:

    When a member of the original indigenous community is sick (mentally, or physically) and goes to a healer, only the healer takes Ayahuasca in order to see the cause of sickness. Never the sick person.

    Taking the drug never lasted days, only one time. Usually the western passageros are drugged for several days.

    How it is done today (for good paying westerners), is mainly to earn a lot of money from tourists but for the first time with native indigenous knowledge.

    The communities in the rainforests were based on equality. These Ahayuasca practices seeded greed and resentments among the community members. Now there are those who own and suppress those how don't.

    How do you think about these developments in the light of international support and advertisements of these kinds of practices with western Ahayuasca customers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    When a member of the original indigenous community is sick (mentally, or physically) and goes to a healer, only the healer takes Ayahuasca in order to see the cause of sickness. Never the sick person.
    Yes it's true it was mostly the healer who drank, but not always. There are over 400 different "people" in the Amazon, each with their own traditions and cultures. Also what most people who don't understand when they claim they might as well drink it in Europe rather than waste money and go to the Amazon, is that Ayahuasca is only ONE of many master plants. The healer/shaman STILL drink the Ayahuasca in order to "see" what other plants and diets the patient should take. Sometimes Ayahuasca is the best cure, especially if it is a parasite related illness. It is also good medicine if it is a psychological illness. Most westerners have psychological illness whereas indigenous people don't have such illnesses as much i.e. more logical for westerners to drink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Taking the drug never lasted days, only one time. Usually the western passageros are drugged for several days.
    This is 100 % incorrect. Ayahuasca only takes 5-7 hours. Iboga on the other hand takes several days. Perhaps you are mixing them up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    These Ayahuasca practices seeded greed and resentments among the community members. Now there are those who own and suppress those how don't.
    This is not really true unless you talk about Brujos (dark magic healers), but they have always been around. The only problem in the Amazon is "white only" ceremonies or "retreats NOT in the Amazon". That is the main problem in my opinion. Also if the west didn't colonise and subjugate the indigenous people they wouldn't be in the position they are in, currently... which makes them vulnerable for exploitation. But even if Ayahuasca creates some problems, it is also the best chance they [the indigenous] have to protect their knowledge and culture since Ayahuasca creates more allies than enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    How do you think about these developments in the light of international support and advertisements of these kinds of practices with western Ayahuasca customers?
    I think Ayahuasca and Iboga, and other indigenous wisdom and knowledge, is the key to saving this planet from self-destruction.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    I dislike the concept of drinking ayahuasca outside an indigenous Amazonian setting or not in Nature. For many years this was only a theory of mine, but not long ago I did attend a European ceremony (mostly to have that experience and see if there was a difference). Conclusion: go to the Amazon

    What people don't seem to understand that the 5-7 hours that the Ayahuasca is working inside your body is only a small part of the whole affair. If you dedicate yourself to the diet these ceremonies last for months. It is real magic. The "trip" begins before you even left your house and continues for months or years afterwards. Then you have the experience of the actual journey to the Amazon. The experience of the awesomeness that is the Amazon. People talk about the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China... those structures are a joke in comparison. Then there's the indigenous people, then there's the Purge (also misunderstood by westerners who try and avoid puking), there's the songs, the smells, the food... and then of course there are the tons of other medicinal plants that you get to experience (if required). Finally there's Mapacho.

    Last edited by Awani; 03-08-2020 at 10:34 AM.
    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Awani View Post

    This is 100 % incorrect. Ayahuasca only takes 5-7 hours. Iboga on the other hand takes several days. Perhaps you are mixing them up?
    Maybe I got something wrong here. But I did not mean the duration of the trip, but giving passageros several drinks in subsequent days. I heard usually the original shaman only takes it one time, then pauses for a certain time. But giving tourists several drinks during one stay in the amazon means more $ for their business. I am only saying what those people said in the interview.

    This is not really true unless you talk about Brujos (dark magic healers), but they have always been around. The only problem in the Amazon is "white only" ceremonies or "retreats NOT in the Amazon". That is the main problem in my opinion. Also if the west didn't colonise and subjugate the indigenous people they wouldn't be in the position they are in, currently... which makes them vulnerable for exploitation. But even if Ayahuasca creates some problems, it is also the best chance they [the indigenous] have to protect their knowledge and culture since Ayahuasca creates more allies than enemies.
    This also came out of the mouth of indigenous people who talked about their community members. Especially those who don't earn their money with Ahayuasca. Have you also talked to those people? They also said that there is not one Shaman that would not be accused of doing dark magic by some other people. Even the "good" ones. It just depends on who you ask.

    I dislike the concept of drinking ayahuasca outside an indigenous Amazonian setting or not in Nature. For many years this was only a theory of mine, but not long ago I did attend a European ceremony (mostly to have that experience and see if there was a difference). Conclusion: go to the Amazon

    What people don't seem to understand that the 5-7 hours that the Ayahuasca is working inside your body is only a small part of the whole affair. If you dedicate yourself to the diet these ceremonies last for months. It is real magic. The "trip" begins before you even left your house and continues for months or years afterwards. Then you have the experience of the actual journey to the Amazon. The experience of the awesomeness that is the Amazon. People talk about the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China... those structures are a joke in comparison. Then there's the indigenous people, then there's the Purge (also misunderstood by westerners who try and avoid puking), there's the songs, the smells, the food... and then of course there are the tons of other medicinal plants that you get to experience (if required). Finally there's Mapacho.

    Do you think the amazon environment and nature itself (also concerning the alteration of climate because of long distant flights) could cope well with all those people who in your opinion should go there?

    I don't consider myself a potential customer of any Ahayuasca ceremony neither here nor there, but I am just trying to understand both sides. After having heard that report, I am not sure at all whether any of this is really a good idea.

    Don't you think there are more effectice and less harsh means (considering the amazon environment, personal health, climate) to achieve a kind of relief of people's mental issues?

    I also don't really support the idea that one would need an external help/supplement (I mean also other drugs) to cope well with someone's issues. I am not saying it doesn't help, obviously it does for many people (just like "legal drugs" prescribed by western doctors), but imo it would be better to use your own inner ressources and learned coping strategies if possible.

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    I can reply to most of what you wrote, but before I do tell me what report was it? There are some sources I would not even bother looking at, so rather know the source first before I waste my time.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    I don't have any comment regarding your source as I never heard of it before, just wanted to make sure it wasn't one of those American Reality TV documentaries that seem to come out on a regular basis, not only do they lack class but they are dumb from start to finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Maybe I got something wrong here. But I did not mean the duration of the trip, but giving passageros several drinks in subsequent days. I heard usually the original shaman only takes it one time, then pauses for a certain time. But giving tourists several drinks during one stay in the amazon means more $ for their business. I am only saying what those people said in the interview.
    That is true but logical. Would you diet for one month, travel across the whole world by plane, boat and trek in order to sit in one ceremony for 5 hours and then travel all the way back. Then it's more logical to spend a few weeks on site. You normally don't drink every day, but you have x amount of ceremonies over x amount of days. Another aspect is the fact that it is very helpful to have more than one ceremony, as some issue require several ceremonies in order to be resolved. Also you don't have to drink each time, some people skip ceremonies.

    Like I said before it is NOT only ayahuasca. You do a lot of other medicines as well, and other diets. It's like going to a hospital.

    I am not aware of your source, but keep in mind that Big Pharma hates Ayahuasca. They don't want people with mental issues to be cured, that's where they make all the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    This also came out of the mouth of indigenous people who talked about their community members. Especially those who don't earn their money with Ahayuasca. Have you also talked to those people? They also said that there is not one Shaman that would not be accused of doing dark magic by some other people. Even the "good" ones. It just depends on who you ask.
    Even indigenous people can feel jealousy, nothing strange about that. I've talked to several major players and leaders (that are indigenous) and the general consensus is that they view it as a good thing. Of course morons call all shamanism the "devils work", but I am talking within the Amazon there are Brujos and these people are dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Do you think the amazon environment and nature itself (also concerning the alteration of climate because of long distant flights) could cope well with all those people who in your opinion should go there?
    I know air travel has received a lot of negative press in conjunction with climate change, but that is baloney. Air travel is not a problem. In fact if humanity fixed all the other issues then we could still fly at the same rate as we do without any issue. Also why would you want to protect the Amazon if you have never been there? I suggest everyone to visit the Amazon regardless if you are going to drink Ayahuasca or not.

    Of course there are those that should be banned from holding Ayahuasca ceremonies and 99 % of these are not indigenous. Anyone that sells Ayahuasca without "paying back" to the indigenous people are nothing but vampires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    Don't you think there are more effectice and less harsh means (considering the amazon environment, personal health, climate) to achieve a kind of relief of people's mental issues?
    Since I don't consider traveling to the Amazon an environmental problem, and since I view Ayahuasca as more safe than drinking water, my answer is no. Ayahuasca is - in my opinion - the most effective way (if done properly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Florius Frammel View Post
    I also don't really support the idea that one would need an external help/supplement...
    I don't agree with this. Recently I've heard a few people refer to Ayahuasca as a supplement. I find this weird. It is not a "supplement" as far as I view that term. It's like calling your brain an accessory. LOL. As for the rest of your question the best answer I can give would simply be to quote below video (he talks about shrooms that grow on cow shit, but his point works for ayahuasca as well):



    I bow to plants (all plants). And any alchemist that doesn't is not doing the work properly.

    Donít let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.


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    Video: Psychedelic Medicine and Birthday Suit Parade [2019]

    Warning: The below linked video contains both male and female nudity, including frontal.

    Video: Psychedelic Medicine and Birthday Suit Parade [2019]

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