Alchemy, archemy,spagyrics where do you think the difference lies?

[Seth-Ra]

To me, most everything is alchemy. Day to day life is alchemy, from breathing, to eating, to helping others and self. Most of that is "subconscious" alchemy, i.e. people dont think about it. Alchemy to me is understanding the energies that make up something, breaking it down, and recreating it as something else, but doing so on all 3 levels of being: Spiritual, Mental, and Physical. "Raising the vibration", i like that definition, "Celestial agriculture" i like that one also. Alchemy is everything, it is Truth, and working with it, in its Truth.

If spagyrics and "archemy" manifest these same concepts, i consider them the same, and the definition to just be a splicing of hairs for the sake of "clubs"/"social groups".

My problems with "sciences" such as chemistry, is that it leaves out the Mental and Spiritual side, seeing only the physical, and thus is incomplete, false, and overall annoying to me. (same goes with other "sciences" that leave out anything.)

So to me, Alchemy is all, and anything that isnt all, isnt alchemy. If one were to combine chemistry, with mental sciences like quantum mechanics, and understanding the energies of the soul, which empowers the mind, effecting the physical... then it becomes Alchemy.

Truth is Alchemy, if it is only part of it, then it isnt it. knowledge isnt key, understanding is. One doesnt need to "know" chemistry, or astrology, or chakras etc... one only needs to understand the energies of the Above manifest in the below, and within, all is connected, all is one, one is key to the all, and a united understanding brings wisdom to all, thus being Truth = Alchemy.

IMO.

~Seth-Ra

[LeoRetilus]

All the "little particulars", although I don't view them that way comprise the greater body of practical lab alchemy that will ultimately bring you to the Grand realization of one thing, it is this, ....everything you think you know is wrong.

Here let me save you some time, although even what I am about to discourse will be illustrated here you will still need to eventually do the work yourself to come to
full circle in your mind then you will see in fact that it is not the universe that bends but yourself, after which the universe will follow.

Lets start by revealing all the paths I know:

1.)The Path of Tartarus: Go here :http://translate.google.at/translate...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Why tartar because that is where the phenols of the red oak meet with those of the red grape. David Hudson's team analyzed both to contain a high degree of phenols(monatomic gold/rhodium), these phenols are literally the purple gold, that you can make by finely disaggregating pure gold metal and also by roasting ores such as sulphide and arsenic gold bearing ores. In fact you can obtain these phenols from these purple foods as well and turn them back to gold. The plants take them out of the air and the soil and the water from which they grow.

Now if you look at the work it is essentially the same as most paths, roast the material in a retort/alembic. The first to fly over is a smoke, the spirit this is the philsophic mercury: (Seen at the top of the condensing flask)



The second to fly over is a red oil: The Philosophic sulfur (seen in the same picture pooling at bottom of flask )and here:



Now to obtain the salt you open the retort and calcine to whiteness and either collect with water and crystallize or add back the mercury and or sulfur to volatilize the fixed salts by distillation, which you must do anyways if you collect with water.
Philosophic Salt:



The three principals of tartar:



2.) The Lead Acetate Path: http://www.heredom.org/images/acetate-steps.jpg



With work flow charts here: Flowchart1
Flowchart2

What we can see with this path is that first the lead or galena needs to be roasted to obtain its oxide and which point it unites with powers born upon the air cheifly oxygen. This oxide is then calcined with vinegar to produce a red lead oxide, minimum. Which is then redissolved in acetum to obtain a green tinctured liquid and then is distilled to remove the acetic acid after which it is dissolved in distilled pure water and put through a series of crytallizations and re-crystallazations that not only purifies the substance more but allows it to capture or absorb more and more philosophic mercury from the air, eventually it becomes the green lion at which point it is roasted/distilled to once again obtain the three principals, which if you look at the steps produces the same three in the same order, first the smoke/eagle philosophic mercury flies over, the red philosophic oil follows and once again the distilation train is opened to roast the remained mass(the black dragon) to obtain the philosophic salt that is once again put through a special process(sublimation) to obtain the volatile salts with the philosophic mercury. Then if you follow the secondwork flowchart these three principals require further multiple distillations to obtain the purified virtues, what we are doing with all this distillation is essentially stripping Gods will from these matters (lead/galena) which made them what they were to begin with. And just think about this if you put them back together again you will not have lead/galena/tartar again you will have a stone with no traces of lead.

What is my point with all of this? Its to illustrate this, that the three principals can in fact by obtained from anything, that includes plants, minerals and yes even your urine. Because when treated alchemically (alchemical processes: roasting, dissolution, calcination,coagulation, crystallization etc.,etc.) they are all essentially the same maters. And they will all form the philosophers stone when the right intention is cast on them, when they are united in the right proportions and when they are fermented with gold or silver to raise thier vibrations or further compress its light.

Now do we have to go through all this work, the answer is no. We can find in nature matters which already contain the three principals in great degree, still un-specified and yet potentiated, they need is only to be purified. Nature is using the same processes to create matter all the time, all the alchemists did by creating all this lab work was mimicking mother nature and they did it by studing her not by reading obscure/deceitful/double meaning books. Those people were trying to distract those trying to take the easy paths, those who would rather follow a recipe than follow nature, a person like those on this forum who waste a lifetime just trying to decipher these books and coded messages they contain. If you are looking for the prima materia from these books before you even get started you are miss understanding what the words mean, there is no one starting matter, not as a virtue that you will begin you lab work with(urine,plants,mineral). What they meant by prima matera(first matter) was what all matter originated as, and that is light. Materially it(matter) is light from stars and black holes, compressed and united in waves and troughs of space. And this one thing gives rise to the other three. Phonetic cabala give me a break, Fulcaneli was no fool, he knew there'd be lazy people just like us trying to take the easy way so he created this allure and these traps to make alchemy into some kind of puzzle solving scheme. I wouldn't waste my time, you are no fools either, just look at it this way did Geber have all those books to try and decipher? The answer was no, he had it simple, he knew it could be done so he figured it out. And he tried to make it simple for us too by designing all that glassware (alembics,pelicans) and all the alchemical processes all that all in part mimick mother nature and to bring those natural processes into the laboratory. Now can some us those books be useful to us? Well sure some of them do confim what we find in nature and through our lab work/ alchemy, but if what these books contain sounds too complicated and puzzling and counter to what we see in nature then we should ignore them and not allow it to consume too much of our time, it is there to lead us astray.

Now where is mans place in all this, this mind and motion universe as Walter Russel called it? Well this universe is one of thought of which comprises 99% of all matter. How do we know this, because scientists especially physicists can use a particle accelerator to smash atoms to their individual consistuients and end up with less mass than they started with. And this is where the fields of Newtonian physics and General Relativity part with quantum mechanics, and thats mostly because alot of these particles acts as both particles and waves and because the sums of there masses (subatomic particles-protons,hadrons,lepton) do not add up to what the atom weighed before it was dismantled, so the biggest question in physics today is: Where did its mass go? Well right now underground between the borders of France and Switzerland, there is a multi-billion dollar experiement trying to find exactly that, the Large Hadron Collider. Enter the Higgs or what physcists call the God particle, aptly so because it is this particle that imparts the missing mass. But what they don't understand is that they will never find it because it does not exist in this dimension, not as a physical particle, it is thought, God's thought, and it is that which alchemists remove from matter to create new matter/life from the existing seed. Which is consquently just different forms of comprised light, which was spoken into existence when God spoke the words, let there be light. And the darkness comprehended it not.
And so now I say the same thing upon this forum ...let there be light

So the grand realization that we come to eventually, through all this "little particular work", is that matter is mostly comprised of thought. And the universe bends itself to conform to our will. And it was designed so because God loves you and he wants for you to be happy and love as well. So when you have obtained the three principals either undifferentiated from nature or from already made/specfied completed matter the question remains will you believe that it can become the philosphers stone,..... only if exists in your mind first, that is your thoughts/will must be imparted to it. Now as well we have sufficient evidence to believe through the work of Dr. Emoto and others that there is something in water that responds to our thoughts but only if that water is purified or originates within the earth. The power that makes this possible is the philosophic mercury born upon the air, which combines with hydrogen and oxygen to create water, which then(philosophic mercury) becomes the placeholder or register of those thoughts of both God and man, it is only fitting that it is through water the universal solvent that mans drinks and the air that he breathes that this light is imparted from God to man. He built the body of man as a bio-mechanical thinking machine and gave him the gift of free will, and engineered his body to receive these gifts of mental, spiritual and bodily nourishments to utilize these forms of light in this material realm. And we have these sensors of sight, sound, taste and touch to experience his creation with. And a beautiful universe it is because you can choose to live it in any way you will. If you are comfortable with it as you see it and how it is presented to you, then fine, you can choose to look no further than what your physical eyes can show you. Another thing you should realize is that nothing man utilizes today does he actually create, we do not create electricity it is here all around us, nature creates it, we only harness it, tap into it, it is just another form of light, electro-magnetic light , there is also magnetic-electro light (radiant energy) that is compressed even further. This universe is both electric and magnetic one does not exist without the other.

[teofrast40]

hallo leo,
thanks for your post.
I am (at the moment only theorically) aware of the procedures that you point at, but, sorry, to me this is spagyry. Obviously spagyry owes its methodology (separation and reunion of the priniciples) to alchemy. solomon levi said before that the difference between a spagyric and an alchemic compound is between buying alchool and salts versus preparing them by your own. to me there is something more. some of this is thouched by your scientific explanation, to which from a logical point of view I agree wholeheartedly. but the grand realisation that you say has to come after the work on little particulars, as you beautifully demonstrate, is perfectly understandable from a logical point of view. the books of the adepts are not. they need a shift, otherwise, they say, reading them is pointless. they make very upsetting declarations. the earth is hollow, the sun is cold, minerals are closer to god than humans. what is this relation between metals, planets, and gods? is it just a metaphor? what is the relation between celestial earth and earthly sky? usually we consider microcosm as being man, but in the majority of alchemical treatises it's the mineral kingdom to be considered speculum naturae.
"if you don't understand me" they say "read me once more, if then again more and more, otherwise let be and do something else"
you see, I am not a man of science, and my interest in science is only a function of my alchemical research, that, as I said before, compels me as an evolutionary path, with the same dignity of yoga, zen, dzog chen etc.
In approaching sincerely alchemy I cannot elude a confrontation with the sources. if modern understandable adaptation of alchemy does not bring me anywhere as a path (as to say, it gives me nothing more than intellectual knowledge), I will stick to those upsetting ancient book, and if I don't understand them, I will re-read them, many times, following their warning. maybe after some (much) time of imbibing my unconscious with those symbols, with the help of god/ess, something will happen..
after many helpful suggestions from your side, let me warmly reccomend you the reading of Renè Alleau "Aspects de l'Alchimie traditionelle", to me the best modern perspective on alchemy. (sorry I don't know if there's an english translation, but if one is serious about alchemy learning french is a priority).

cheerfully
t

[LeoRetilus]

Not at all, Spagyrics is plant alchemy , and while you could classify the tartar path maybe as spagyrics because the materials from tartar themselves originate from plants. The lead acetate and GW paths are not at all spagyrics, but what you must realize is that even minerals owe their birth to plants, through the waters that they decompose into and trickle down through the earth, you can take the three principals from plants and indeed make a stone, is it the philosophers stone? No not until it is fermented with gold for the red and silver for the white.

[teofrast40]

hallo leo
I have to disagree. Spagyrics as plant alchemy is a modern invention. Spagyric is an incomplete application of alchemical methodology to therapeutics means. it was first used by paracelsus to point out this specific alchemical methodology (separation and reunion). we could consider it as an exoteric therapeutic application, same as archemy. and it makes a wide use of minerals as well as plants. but, to get to alchemy, as I said, we miss a big chunk.
in effect, we could argue regarding the acetate path, that, in the plans you pointed misses the final step - cohobation of the purified principles (by the way, as always from you, grat links!). I shall consider it more in depth, but I must say that, as regarding caro cinnabar's path and GW, I am a bit skeptic in considering it pertaing to the Royal Art. those things came out from nowhere in recent past, while the great work must be very ancient to me..
best wishes

[Androgynus]

Originally Posted by teofrast40

Those things came out from nowhere in recent past, while the great work must be very ancient to me...

The fact that those things resurfaced and popped into public attention in the recent past does not make them 'not ancient'.
The ancients have worked with both Cinnabar and GW. There are ample Vedic traditions concerning both GW and Cinnabar.

[teofrast40]

Originally Posted by Androgynus

The ancients have worked with both Cinnabar and GW. There are ample Vedic traditions concerning both GW and Cinnabar.

that is absolutely true. anyway in classical western alchemical literature there is no mention of them (well to be honest, "urine of young choleric boy" sometimes appear, but I consider it a symbol). to me l'Art Royale pertains to different subjects.
The operation that Caro did reminds me of what happened with some gesuites that imported zen meditation to overcome the lack of efficient prayer practice in catholic church. there's nothing wrong with it, contamination to me is a good thing, just call things with their names!
Alchemical literature, past and present, has a very hig bullshit density. many charlatans wrote about it. and if we are intellectually honest we cannot even reject the hypothesis that it's all a big bluff, as many people desume from the post-lavoisier decadence of alchemy.. so discrimination to me is important, that's not snobism.
beware, I'm not saying that Caro or Dubuis were charlatans!! they must have been sincere researcher, but, did anyone here managed to make and ingest the planetary elixirs of PON and get the expected results? I don't think so. even Dubuis left the whole lab research and moved over to the Portae Lucis thing..
or did anyone managed to accomplish Caro's way and got anything more than empoisonment?
gold transmutations and even "rejuvenation" are supposed to be only side effects (and a way to test it) of the Stone, as its first and foremost aim, as Salazius pointed out, is enlightment.
I would not gamble myself to the point of working on phytotherapeutic compounds and telling myself that by doing this I am gettin enlighted.

[Androgynus]

I don't care much for different people calling different things by one name or giving different names to one thing.

The Source Principles never change - but their applications do, as do the names that people give them. Don't get sidetracked by names (I'd say )

By all means, use your discernment - but don't stop there.
Put what you've discerned to the fire, have it stand its trials, and then convert it to Earth (physical/practical application).

After hundreds (if not thousands) of pages I've read on The Work, my personal advice would be to deeply contemplate the Emerald Tablet and keep a keen, observing and open eye on Nature. If you're ready, I think that should suffice to get you started.

Any further texts you'll sudy will be most likely attracted and discerned not by randomness or theorizing, but by the wisdom aquired from personal applied experience.

[Ghislain]

Hi Leo

That is an amazing piece of work above (post 22). How long would a process like that take and to
document it also must add a great deal to this time?

For me in my position I have to think of room, fumes, equipment etc... Every time I see a post like
that I want to try it .

Excuse my ignorance but I am an extreme novice in the field of lab alchemy and have not ventured
to the end of any path as such; yet. So my questions are:

What is the purpose of the green vitrified stone at the end of this process?
When you say you can do this with any starting material...I have no lead but plenty of aluminium,
could I use this and follow the same procedure as above?
This question could go in any thread I guess, but as it has been niggling me I must ask it... I have
never possessed any proper lab equipment, as you may have noticed from my jam jars and wine
bottles . How hard are they to clean when a process is over, or does one have to break the vessel
sometimes to reclaim the material inside?

I ask this as a lot of these pieces are very expensive and I hate to waste he says, warming his
hands over a candle. However if this expense is absolutely necessary I will have to take that path.

But I digress

Originally Posted by LeoRetilus

Fulcaneli was no fool, he knew there'd be lazy people just like us trying to
take the easy way

I knew I was being watched

Originally Posted by LeoRetilus

so the biggest question in physics today is: Where did its mass go?

Was this question not answered when uranium was split by accident into two parts of barium but
when weighed there was missing mass. The answer came from Einstein’s formula E=MC^2. The
missing mass was turned into pure energy; or does this not apply in this instance?

Originally Posted by LeoRetilus

He built the body of man as a bio-mechanical thinking machine and gave
him the gift of free will

He may have supplied the materials (elements seen or unseen) and intervened in the direction of
the building but I think evolution still played a large part. When free will is talked of I believe it may
refer more to the free will of form than that of a property of mind. If it were not for our gravity we
would be very different creatures. Our surroundings have a considerable effect on what we are.

Originally Posted by teofrast40

I am not a man of science, and my interest in science is only a function of my alchemical research
, that, as I said before, compels me as an evolutionary path, with the same dignity of yoga, zen, dzog
chen etc.

Could the original question be better served if it included science?
Is alchemy a science?
If it is a path then could it be considered more a religion albeit with or without a deity?

You demonstrate that you have not fully understood alchemy in that you are separating the
ONE - and the first law of alchemy is that "Everything is ONE. Thus each operation referring to an
external metal may also be referred to a metal literally - INSIDE MAN. Thus you are only considering
one aspect of alchemy and not ALL OF ALCHEMY - WHICH IS GLOBAL AND BASED ON
UNITY.

Source:

I just have a feeling about that when I read it.

Originally Posted by LeoRetilus

but what you must realize is that even minerals owe
their birth to plants

Would that not be the other way around? The building blocks for plants
– amino acids.

Originally Posted by Androgynus

deeply contemplate the Emerald Tablet

Is this a satisfactory translation of the
Emerald Tablet to go by?

Originally Posted by Androgynus

keep a keen, observing and open eye on Nature.

I feel that when that is said, Man is being excluded as part of nature. Is
not our just ‘being’...whatever that may be at the time...nature?

Originally Posted by Androgynus

Any further texts you'll study will be most likely
attracted and discerned not by randomness

This is how I got to this point.

And what if I never acquire wisdom

Ghislain

[Androgynus]

Originally Posted by Ghislain

Is alchemy a science? If it is a path then could it be considered more a religion albeit with or without a deity?

This holding on to categorizing things is starting to make me dizzy

Is Architecture a science?

Is science a religion?

Is religion a fish?

Is a fish a primordial geometrical archetype?

Does it need a bicycle?

Yes it does

(See illustration below)



And now that we've FINALLY clarified that you can't have a fish without a bicycle...

Originally Posted by Ghislain

Is this a satisfactory translation of the Emerald Tablet to go by?

This is definitely not the first translation I'd start with...

Originally Posted by Ghislain

I feel that when that is said, Man is being excluded as part of nature.

No, Man is not excluded. By all means, include Man. Starting with youself

Originally Posted by Ghislain

And what if I never acquire wisdom?

Than you won't have any